Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Vendalwind]

Man here I was ready to let this one go. but oh well time to argue.

I mean, these aren't perspectives,

Yes. Yes they are, and by stating thats how i viewed Katie's perspectives I thought it was pretty clear I meant for mine to viewed the same way. IN FACT i said it:

Effectively these are just differing perspectives on the history of the game.

Dragoon and Ninja are the 2 melee you're referring to that have always taken up the 2 melee slots and thats clearly attributed to the utility they had.

False on two counts. MONK didn't begin with utility, and actually I'm referring to the ORIGINAL CAST. which btw didn't have NIN. NIN wasn't implemented till 2.4

the first time this was challenged in patch 4.4, it was proven that there was no disadvantage or punishment for doing 1 melee 1 ranged and 2 casters. these aren't perspectives, this is literally how the game has always been. FFXIV has a meta and it's very easy to look back and see trends as to why things they way they were. you're claiming that this game was designed with a specific comp in mind, despite that not being endorsed officially until 3.3 when the raid finder was implemented. duty finder has never required a specific comp to this day beyond having 1/2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4/5 dps. you can go look at older patch notes for mid heavensward to see what im referring to regarding the raid finder and to this day, the duty finder doesn't require 2 melee.

Again wrong on a few counts. First It absolutely was challenged pre 4.4 because meta comps aren't what im talking about. Meta is one thing, Im talking about fight design, and general party comp. Not cherry picking the single perfect setup. The game has had, and still has very glaring balance flaws. That doesn't mean it was "designed" with the meta comp in mind. In fact mentioning previous meta comps is literally entirely in consequential to the subject at hand.

And of COURSE the duty finders weren't locked to two melees. cause that way more options and freedom is enabled and people can play around with other comps, makes the game more fun and more customizable and free, but again the state of the party finders and their imposed limitations has no correlation to the games intended raid design and party comp design. (note it was also made that way to aid wait times)

on the subject of fight design, this also isn't true. the fights are designed to accommodate 4 jobs in melee range but i'd argue only 3 of those are required to be to melee jobs (2 tanks and 1 melee) that 4th puddle can go to a caster to help them keep up cast and reduce movement and this is what would happen if you brought 2 ranged 1 caster and 1 melee or even 2 casters, 1 ranged, and 1 melee. my point here is that accommodating something and determining what something is design specifically for aren't the same thing, you can't say that having 8 puddles, 4 of which are in melee range are designed that way because the devs WANT you to have 2 melee, you can say that they are designed that way INCASE you brought 2 melee. You can do puddles in E2s without a melee, just put a ranged in a melee spot. the reason 4 spots are in melee range is so groups that wanted to take a 2nd melee wouldn't be completely boned by cucking their tanks.

You literally just proved my point but just offered a differing perspective. Here let me go through the exact same order of analysis you did but conclude different things at each step with a different couple pieces of anecdotal evidence:

The fights are designed to accommodate 4 jobs in melee range so I'd argue the fights are designed with 4 melee specifically in mind. However of those 2 melee spots other classes could be used because they can stand wherever. If it was designed SPECIFICALLY so that two melee could be brought then it was literally designed FOR TWO MELEE, regardless of whether you think the Dev's wanted 2 melee as the standard comp. In titan the boss attack zone and area are specifically built so that even if half the stage is gone melee can still fight. That is melee design in mind during the party splits N/S. During Leviathan the party is split in two, and each side accommodates one melee and needs one ranged for black smokers. But using your logic since 4 melee can technically do black smokers I guess that part of the fight wasn't designed with two ranged specifically in mind? I would argue that it was designed ABSOLUTELY for 2 ranged and two melee. And on your puddles from E2 again using your logic I guess the fights design is such that no melee are needed at all? cause your right. Technically every single mechanic can be done even with 4 melee, and even easier with 4 ranged, but the fights are absolutely made with 2 melee slots in mind. This is very true of old raid tiers as well.

It's not "INCASE" you brought 2 melee. its designed that way FOR 2 melee. See how thats a perspective? I very seldom argue with objective fact, because very few things outside of rough quantitative analysis are fact. I NEVER declared my arguments as fact, and the only things that you should read that way are the numbers moments such as the ratios. Historical analysis is ALWAYS a perspective. ALWAYS.

Even if i were to meet you half way and say that this is my own reasoning. you also can't dismiss katies position by using your own perspective as fact,

I literally did not do what you say i did above.

but then tell me my different perspective is just my interpretation.

SIGH I literally said, and i'll quote the exact same moment again

Effectively these are just differing perspectives on the history of the game.

THESE. I SAID THESE. I MEANT MINE TOO. you are the one trying to spit out things as "fact" and shut down other opinions. this bigheaded close minded belligerence prevents growth and any chance of compromise being met. If you can't relax and compromise there is no point in even discussing things with you. The general pattern of forum arguing where people ignore opponents true points and ONLY attack small discrepancies or weakness is unhealthy discourse. Instead people like to continue to bring up piles of information and just ignore the othersides information. Its bad.

You had good points. I SAID that, but your points are not the only conclusions that can be reached from the evidence you provided. I didn't combat them at the time, because to me it didn't matter, I was sufficiently satisfied with my understanding that your perspective is backed up too. But since you continue to try to falsely trash my arguments I now continue with yours:

either my interpretation is the right one and most expert players will reach the same conclusion as i have, or both of our perspectives are logical reasoning by which you can't use either to refute katie.

Or my original interpretation is right? HMMM? Because mine most certainly was logical reasoning too.
Logic as used in english is not so clean as it is in computer science, because the logic often tries to force connectives of contextuals.
This is nto a black and white issue, but you are trying to assign it binary conclusive results.
It's also possible both of our interpretations are right at different moments and some designers leaned one way, and other leaned the other.

you're going to need something more concrete than your personal feelings on what the health of the game should be when we're talking about the growth of something that has already happened and calming it as fact.

Again.... I didn't claim it as fact.
Also everything you have said has been BASED PRIMARILY ON YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS. for moments when we didn't base arguments on feelings please refer to the ratios i provided and the link to logs you provided. the rest was anecdotal events or moments analyzed with feelings on the subject and event in question.

[Archwizard]

If anyone's still interested in Spellblades in this thread, I had a dream last night that the job used its strikes to build up 100/100 of a resource that, once capped out, immediately turned into a duration-based super mode (like 15-30 sec) that the same strikes could briefly extend (albeit a losing battle, ie 2 sec per strike vs a 2.5 sec GCD). The goal being basically to minimize time out of the super-mode.

It's probably just a result of my subconscious crossing DRK's Blood Gauge with DRG's Blood of the Dragon, but I don't think that combination has actually been done by any job yet. Super Mode could easily be something like summoning an aetherial blade like Alisaie to improve the potency of attacks or open access to unique skills. Could be a unique enchantment or even something Armiger-esque.

Generic, I know, but still in the skeletal stage.

[PatronasCharm]

If anyone's still interested in Spellblades in this thread, I had a dream last night that the job used its strikes to build up 100/100 of a resource that, once capped out, immediately turned into a duration-based super mode (like 15-30 sec) that the same strikes could briefly extend (albeit a losing battle, ie 2 sec per strike vs a 2.5 sec GCD). The goal being basically to minimize time out of the super-mode.

It's probably just a result of my subconscious crossing DRK's Blood Gauge with DRG's Blood of the Dragon, but I don't think that combination has actually been done by any job yet. Super Mode could easily be something like summoning an aetherial blade like Alisaie to improve the potency of attacks or open access to unique skills. Could be a unique enchantment or even something Armiger-esque.

Generic, I know, but still in the skeletal stage.

If anything, build resource by completing Elemental Rotations:

I made a few concepts, and I may rewrite my existing Mystic Knight and make it into a "Magical Melee DPS" with a big great hammer lol.

So, I'd say have 4 rotations.

Elemental Weakness Rotations build up Charges: Opener WS >> Flametongue >> Galestrike [1 Astral charge]

Opener WS >> Lightning Strike >> Stoneshear >> [1 Umbral Charge]

Player can change their rotation based on what charge it needs.

Have x3 Charges of Umbral / Astral opens up to the "Dark" and "Holy" Element.

x3 Astral = Excalibur (Holy)
x3 Umbral = some dark type WS.

If they have both 3/3 they can have a super rotation mode.

Then we can sprinkle "Charge" based Astral / Umbral only Elements that could buff party members or hinder foe.

We need a "Debuff" Job!

On a side note, I enjoyed reading your concept a few pages back, good stuff =)

[Vendalwind]

If anything, build resource by completing Elemental Rotations:

I made a few concepts, and I may rewrite my existing Mystic Knight and make it into a "Magical Melee DPS" with a big great hammer lol.

Hammer would be wholly unique but I do think this game tends to stick with tried and true FF classes. so Mage hammer isn't really identifiable as one. In fact blunt weapons now that I think about it are probably the most underused in the final fantasy series.... Pretty much just viking and onion knight.

So, I'd say have 4 rotations.

Elemental Weakness Rotations build up Charges: Opener WS >> Flametongue >> Galestrike [1 Astral charge]

Opener WS >> Lightning Strike >> Stoneshear >> [1 Umbral Charge]

Player can change their rotation based on what charge it needs.

Have x3 Charges of Umbral / Astral opens up to the "Dark" and "Holy" Element.

x3 Astral = Excalibur (Holy)
x3 Umbral = some dark type WS.

If they have both 3/3 they can have a super rotation mode.

Then we can sprinkle "Charge" based Astral / Umbral only Elements that could buff party members or hinder foe.

We need a "Debuff" Job!

On a side note, I enjoyed reading your concept a few pages back, good stuff =)

I would love to see a more distinct debuff job, Devs do seem loathe to properly allow debuffs tho sadly. So the classes unique style would be management of multiple different resources that enhanced play? This actually makes me think of insect glaive from Monster Hunter series. They have to maintain "nectar" collection from three different parts of a monsters body to charge up, but can remain charged as long as they maintain the gathering of each nectar. Head boosts attack, Body boosts defense (flinching) and legs and arms boosted maneuverability. Put em all together and you are ina super strong state.

We have many jobs that maintain some meter or buff, Greased Lightning as an example. But we dont really have any that have to maintain multiple status enhancing statuses at the same time. It would be cool to have a class designed with that in mind. Each part could enhance the kit, but downtime would force you to temporarily lose a certain part of the enhancements for a little while and you would have the freedom to choose which one for different circumstances. or make it so there are many things that could be maintained but only 3 could be up at any time.

The class could start out with forced cast bars on all skills

-Wind could grant swiftcast, making it extremely valuable for mechanics, but it doesn't actually add dmg, so dropping it briefly at times in favor of pure damage would be a gain.
-Earth could grant the ability to ignore positionals (dont let the class use true north then)
-Fire could add raw damage, but not so much that missed positionals or inability to swiftcast wouldn't be more damaging in certain moments.
-Lightning could grant dots in the kit extra damage so you always want to have lightning up right before re-applying dots, but not otherwise
-Water could offer a healing boon to self thus making it a less used recovery buff
-Ice could enhance AOE damage.

-Thus max damage would come with Fire Lightning and Ice up at the same time, but this would make weaving impossible and movement impossible thus the class has to sacrifice some of its boosts to operate at times.
-Each could be accessed as a finisher to a 3 step melee combo, Enfire, enIce etc. or Icestrike etc.
-So the class would have one 2 step melee combo each with cast times and positionals (back on the first one) then have the finisher attack in 6 variants also all have positionals for full dmg (not effect, effect should always be safe to activate)

-each granting an ability that is maintained for about 9-10 GCDs.
-Thus only three could be active at a time with some mild 4 overlap.
-Then give it an alternate aoe combo that still finishes with the same Ice strike skills.
Immediately Earth and Air become extremely important, because they allow oGCD weaving and enable positional movement. but not so necessary that during certain moments they couldn't drop air to do more dmg.

This class would be highly difficult to perfect tho with this design, and would be EXTREMELY fight dependent. Every prog would see them using Earth Air Fire, but then for fights without positionals earth would drop entirely, and as fights became more memorized thunder or ice might occasionally replace fire, and with even further skill a player could at certain moments go full YOLO with fire ice and Lightning active.

I realize this is definitely a different direction than your original design but it could be interesting. It would be fun to see some class synergy too such as granting wind refreshing a Caster's swiftcast or something, but that kinda utility is really hard to balance around unfortunately. This is kinda I guess my own random vision for a spell blade now. Man. It would be hard to perfect it. But man I like the idea of utilizing all 6 elements

[Archwizard]

x3 Astral = Excalibur (Holy)
x3 Umbral = some dark type WS.

On the one-hand, and at the risk of being accused of trying to make a Keyblader job again, "Ragnarok" has historically been used as the name of another holy sword opposite Excalibur throughout the FF series.
On the other, "Galatine" in Arthurian legend is a blade described as "the shadow to Excalibur's light".

However, I would also note that both Excalibur and Ragnarok have been used as weapon names for Zodiac weapons for the PLD and WAR, respectively.
As an alternative though, you could consider other weaponskills available from the FF series -- for instance, Agrias and Thunder God in Orbonne Monastery provide us with "Judgement", "Cleansing Strike", "Dusk/Shadowblade", all as good options.

Hammer would be wholly unique but I do think this game tends to stick with tried and true FF classes. so Mage hammer isn't really identifiable as one. In fact blunt weapons now that I think about it are probably the most underused in the final fantasy series.... Pretty much just viking and onion knight.

I suppose there's enough broadness with the Spellblade's naming conventions that you could go with a (Spell/Rune/Mystic) Knight and avoid having to discuss why it doesn't use some kind of sword.
But then you would have to ignore half the historical skill names like "Liquid Steel" or "Thunder Blade" (as well as a few of the suffixes we've generated like "-stroke", "-shear", "-edge", etc) since they don't fit as well with a hammer, and probably just go with the generic "-strike" name for almost everything. Plus I think WAR has begun adopting hammers as alternative weapons, particularly now that Slashing/Blunt vulnerabilities are gone.

That being said, even if swords are "overdone" by some standards, it is worth pointing out that A) there are multiple styles of swordplay the world over, enough that various weapons classified as "swords" can look and be used completely differently (such as, say, the Khopesh versus the Schiavona), and B) only about half of the jobs with swords actually focus on swordplay and technique, versus just awkwardly slashing around.

Given the Middle Eastern-inspired appearance of the Spellblade in FF5, BD, and various side-entries, I would say the most appropriate weapon-type for them would be curved swords (which FF11 treated with enough distinction to make the purview purely of BLU), such as Scimitars, Falchions, Sabers, Shamshirs, Falx, Dao, Falcata, etc.

The class could start out with forced cast bars on all skills

-Wind could grant swiftcast, making it extremely valuable for mechanics, but it doesn't actually add dmg, so dropping it briefly at times in favor of pure damage would be a gain.
-Earth could grant the ability to ignore positionals (dont let the class use true north then)
-Fire could add raw damage, but not so much that missed positionals or inability to swiftcast wouldn't be more damaging in certain moments.
-Lightning could grant dots in the kit extra damage so you always want to have lightning up right before re-applying dots, but not otherwise
-Water could offer a healing boon to self thus making it a less used recovery buff
-Ice could enhance AOE damage.

Oh hey, same hat. 'Bout the only things different are that I swapped some of the effects around -- Fire to do DoTs, Lightning for AoE (chain damage), Ice for (resource) recovery and Water for raw damage (acting as an energy conductor).

I've also been toying with the alternative idea that each one of them adds an "En-" effect that only lasts for a specified number of Weaponskills (2-3, prob), and that some oGCDs would cheat the system by inheriting the En-effect but not consuming charges by virtue of not being Weaponskills. Gives you a reason to cycle between certain ones and maybe even ignore standard "comboing" mechanics used by other melee (and even RDM) in favor of cobbling together a rotation based on what En-effects you need right now.

First wave place DoT, second and third wave generate resources, fourth wave resource burst.

I realize this is definitely a different direction than your original design but it could be interesting. It would be fun to see some class synergy too such as granting wind refreshing a Caster's swiftcast or something, but that kinda utility is really hard to balance around unfortunately. This is kinda I guess my own random vision for a spell blade now.

But that's good though! Having multiple ideas on how to execute one theoretical job goes exactly towards the point, that such a job could be generated and be completely unique from any existing job.
"Might step on the toes of X you say? Okay, I'll just pick any of a hundred alternative directions." It's complete insanity to block a potentially limitless number of directions just because one competing job might get one or two more vaguely similar weaponskills an expansion.

Oh, and two more ideas:
One, Strike skills could potentially do mixed physical and magical damage, with the latter's damage being scalar to the damage dealt by the former. This not only opens avenues for multihitting attacks and effects, but would allow the magic damage to increase with any Physical damage bonuses while also allowing the Spellblade to inherit some magic bonuses as well (albeit not so many as a dedicated caster). Plus, imagine being able to critical/direct hit twice in one swing, which gives some interesting potential for burst damage.
Second -

Gap closer:
- Warp Strike: Throw an aetherial blade toward the enemy and teleport to it, dealing damage to the target; 30 sec CD
--> Improved Warp Strike: Allows the accumulation of charges on Warp Strike, allowing it to be used twice in succession
--> Link Strikes: Allows Warp Strike to be used on allied targets as well, restoring the target's HP and causing your next Warp Strike within 15 sec to critically hit

Instead of having a Link Strike heal the target, it heals you, like when Noctis Warps away from a combat situation to recover. That way while you would normally be at a disadvantage with Bloodbath, the fact that you can use it like Aetherial Manipulation and still recover most of that damage could put your personal burst healing higher than most without having to sacrifice as much.

Plus you could also add in variations on Runic for personal defense.

[Vendalwind]

That being said, even if swords are "overdone" by some standards, it is worth pointing out that A) there are multiple styles of swordplay the world over, enough that various weapons classified as "swords" can look and be used completely differently (such as, say, the Khopesh versus the Schiavona), and B) only about half of the jobs with swords actually focus on swordplay and technique, versus just awkwardly slashing around.

Given the Middle Eastern-inspired appearance of the Spellblade in FF5, BD, and various side-entries, I would say the most appropriate weapon-type for them would be curved swords (which FF11 treated with enough distinction to make the purview purely of BLU), such as Scimitars, Falchions, Sabers, Shamshirs, Falx, Dao, Falcata, etc.

I'm on the same page with you there. I earlier mentioned that saying Nin's dual knives are the same as DRK's greatsword is basically like saying DRG's lance is the same as the bow and arrow.

Even just dual swords would be fine. NIN back wields his knives (a rather ineffective style to be honest, but expertly flashy) True dual weilding is best done with a longsword and a shorter parrying dagger. The biggest historical example of a truly successful dual wielder is Musashi Miyamoto, who basically one man armied against up to 24 warriors once using two swords. (including opponents with bows) Accounts differ greatly, but a few things are fact, He knowingly came to the "duel" that was actually an ambush with murdering intent and he turned it around. I mean he came out of it half dead and was basically unconscious for a few days after according to some reports. But seriously impressive. At one point the guy literally stopped using real swords because he kept killing his opponents, and then he started killing them with wooden sword strikes too @_@.

Anyways that's enough mild Historical musashi fan for the moment. Please note my above paragraph holds discrepancies that some scholars argue about.

But of the swords we have each is extremely unique fighting style. Sword and Board PLD classic, Greatsword/claymore style. Katana Iai Style. RDM fencing is absolutely unique and restricts one from using slashes in favor of flourished stabs and ripostes. NIN dual knives is less practical in reality, but basically acrobatic.

[PatronasCharm]

On the one-hand, and at the risk of being accused of trying to make a Keyblader job again, "Ragnarok" has historically been used as the name of another holy sword opposite Excalibur throughout the FF series.
On the other, "Galatine" in Arthurian legend is a blade described as "the shadow to Excalibur's light".

I like that, Ragnarok, in my older concept

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Melee-DPS%29

I'm reworking it; I had it as "Darksbane," but Ragnoarok just sounds powerful!

I suppose there's enough broadness with the Spellblade's naming conventions that you could go with a (Spell/Rune/Mystic) Knight and avoid having to discuss why it doesn't use some kind of sword.
But then you would have to ignore half the historical skill names like "Liquid Steel" or "Thunder Blade" (as well as a few of the suffixes we've generated like "-stroke", "-shear", "-edge", etc) since they don't fit as well with a hammer, and probably just go with the generic "-strike" name for almost everything. Plus I think WAR has begun adopting hammers as alternative weapons, particularly now that Slashing/Blunt vulnerabilities are gone.

As far as WS naming conventions: I was sort of taking WS inspirations from FFXI's Club Weapon Skills:

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Club

for more names to give it's Elemental WSes, because it doesn't just have to be called "Element" Strike / Shear / Boom boom pow, etc. You can call it let's say:

"Judgement" Deals Lightning Damage to enemies within range with a potency of 350. Consumes Single Umbral Element.

Liquid Steel could be their throwing ability, slings the big hammer at the target that trails a "Tsunami" towards target. Heck, make it a cone attack!

Other things to,

https://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/magicknight.shtml

I'd rehash some of these abilities shown in the history of the job. Climhazard could potentially infuse party members attacks with Magic. It would be a "Damage Up" buff, but in the form of an "En-Spell"

Climhazard: If Mystic Knight has 3 Charges of Umbral Element, Self and Party Member(s) within range are given a magical element to their attacks.

Oh hey, same hat. 'Bout the only things different are that I swapped some of the effects around -- Fire to do DoTs, Lightning for AoE (chain damage), Ice for (resource) recovery and Water for raw damage (acting as an energy conductor).

I've also been toying with the alternative idea that each one of them adds an "En-" effect that only lasts for a specified number of Weaponskills (2-3, prob), and that some oGCDs would cheat the system by inheriting the En-effect but not consuming charges by virtue of not being Weaponskills. Gives you a reason to cycle between certain ones and maybe even ignore standard "comboing" mechanics used by other melee (and even RDM) in favor of cobbling together a rotation based on what En-effects you need right now.

First wave place DoT, second and third wave generate resources, fourth wave resource burst.

This I really like, doesn't sound too complex, but sounds like a neat dance the player can do, and if done properly, they could potentially deal out some serious DPS.

[Katie_Kitty]

Your answer is devoid of logic and you didnt answer my questions at all about what role beyond healers you would like to see added.

Outright refusing to read or even acknowledge the contents of my post does not give you the right to claim it is "devoid of logic." This is just more of the same crap we see from intellectually lazy and dishonest people like you in the real world these days. "I dont like it therefore it doesn't exist." Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

[Vendalwind]

Outright refusing to read or even acknowledge the contents of my post does not give you the right to claim it is "devoid of logic." This is just more of the same crap we see from intellectually lazy and dishonest people like you in the real world these days. "I dont like it therefore it doesn't exist." Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

IM BACK EARLY WITHOUT SELF CONTROL!
Here to tell you that I did read your post, but your post didn't respond to mine... so Uh. Pot calling the kettle black?
It wasn't lazy. your post literally had dis-connected statements. I don't always go full detail rip mode cause I you know... have other things to do with my life?
The level of personal attack you go to here while only citing an assumption. Wow. Much Wow.
You are the one assuming I didn't read your post. (btw I definitely read your posts)
While still avoiding critically responding to any of the questions posed to you. Hrmmm

[Katie_Kitty]

IM BACK EARLY WITHOUT SELF CONTROL!
Here to tell you that I did read your post, but your post didn't respond to mine... so Uh. Pot calling the kettle black?
It wasn't lazy. your post literally had dis-connected statements. I don't always go full detail rip mode cause I you know... have other things to do with my life?
The level of personal attack you go to here while only citing an assumption. Wow. Much Wow.
You are the one assuming I didn't read your post. (btw I definitely read your posts)
While still avoiding critically responding to any of the questions posed to you. Hrmmm

?

I'm sorry, but I seriously question your reading comprehension abilities if you can't understand what I was saying in that post. Your logic is frankly garbage and assumes that, first, party comp is designed to be a certain way forever just because of the type of jobs the game started with, and second that the fact that encounters are designed to accomodate double melee means parties are meant to bring double melee as the standard. That makes no sense whatsoever, and as I explained in the post, you could use the same logic to suggest that parties are meant to use a standard 4-ranged comp instead because sticking a ranged in a position capable of accommodating a melee has no drawbacks whatsoever.