Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Rdm is surely not the only job which faced pf-lockouts or "switch cls"-statements at all... there were Sams, Nins, Smns, Brds & Mchs in older expansions which were treated like that by the speed-run community. Its just natural that those player wanna use the better/easier cls for their runs. This time it's RDM... next time its maybe BLK/Mnk again if the balance patch drops and closes the dps-gap... who knows... : /

Talking about BS-mentality:
If u can't find a grp with pf cause of lockouts... how about making an own grp? There are also enough raider who don't care the meta/community over all mind. But like always... making an own grp needs responsibility and orga... what many player just dont want to do by themselves its easier to talk about lockouts (and holding the opportunity to rage quit if things get worse..) instead. : /

(not to say balance is a joke atm... hopefully 5.1 won't be a fail)

NIN, SMN, BRD were all meta in the speedrun community in SB just check the speed logs. BRD, MCH and NIN were meta in HW. MCH was temporarily meta in SB when its hypercharged was 6% and casters didn't have their buffs yet, however, no one wanted to play it. But they were never shunned. The only job that hasn't been meta in your list is SAM. I agree however that these jobs have been shunned this expansion; NIN is in a good spot right now DPS wise and is fairly balanced against the rest of the melee. Ranged and Casters are the only jobs having real issues, but that's solely because BLM has no competitor and taking anything other than BLM for the caster/ranged spot is over 1.1k dps gone.

The ranged and casters need to be brought up to the melee levels or around there at least.

[Neela]

and they all were locked out in between as well - don’t be hypercritical here. Just because RDM wasn’t meta yet it doesn’t mean others suffered like it as well. The times before said cls were meta in that tiers they were unbalanced and weak as well (not to say that most of their rotations/ping were clunky af too... what RDM can't say until 2day) -> they became meta with patch adjustments -> Smn f.e were more than un-wanted before they nerfed missing-Aetherflow-hit punishment. And hell MCH rotations s*cked absolutely to the fullest. So no: they weren’t meta from the scratch.

There was also a time no one cared for Blm, weird hm? Just because a Cls is meta now it doesn’t mean it always was in a good spot.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

and they all were locked out in between as well - don’t be hypercritical here. Just because RDM wasn’t meta yet it doesn’t mean others suffered like it as well. The times before said cls were meta in that tiers they were unbalanced and weak as well -> they became meta with patch adjustments.

There was also a time no one cared for Blm, weird hm? Just because a Cls is meta now it doesn’t mean it always was in a good spot.

What I responded to was your statement about how they were all shunned in previous expansions; which is simply untrue for NIN and BRD which have always been meta in previous expansions. I have played since ARR and seen the meta evolve throughout every expansion. NIN and BRD have been meta since their releases right up until SB, wherein a TK MNK could replace a NIN only if the fight design benefitted a MNK moreso.

I agree with your statement about classes now, given the adjustments in 5.1 any job could be mathematically the best for a given role and change the meta. That doesn't change how things are now though currently. Also, i'm well aware that classes aren't always meta. I played MNK since ARR, HW and SB was a shitshow for us lol.

Given the nature of RDM though, it has ALWAYS been shunned outside of progression. However given the discrepancies of DPS between casters, even if you took a RDM for the purpose of having a rezbot, the chances of killing the tier (at least before everyone outgeared it) was a lot lower, simply because of the huge dps disparity. The only jobs to never be apart of the speedrun meta have been RDM and SAM.

Edit:

I never implied jobs were meta from scratch.

[Neela]

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

edit:

I never implied jobs were meta from scratch.

I know but meta was your answer on my call that they had problems as well before they got a place somewhere.
Just to underline they also had a way to go before they were in the spot you took for comparison tho.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

Jobs should be balanced around savage content, no one cares outside of savage and extremes who's doing what DPS or who has what utility, but when it comes to clearing the hardest content of the game which have tight DPS checks before outgearing it, jobs should be similarly balanced within a few hundred of each other. Why would you balance jobs around more casual content that have almost no DPS checks when all jobs are capable of doing Eureka and Fates etc? There's no disadvantage to not being optimal in fates, or eureka the content will still get cleared/completed. But there are disadvantages for being poorly balanced in savage content, especially early on when people aren't out-gearing it. The problems with RDM and SMN is that it's ridiculously weak in comparison to BLM. No caster should have such a huge tax just because they can res. a couple hundred I could agree with, but upwards of 1.1k dps difference for SMN and 1.35k for RDM at all percentiles is ridiculous. That disparity includes their raid contribution too. At higher percentiles it's closer to 1.5k dps difference. A res isn't worth a 1.5k DPS loss, nor is a terrible single target heal. RDM and SMN already lose DPS by ressing anyway for the sheer fact of missing their GCD.

I don't think anyone should be defending the giant gap between the caster's right now. I agree with the general statement that res should hold some weight to it. But not by much. 100~ DPS at most.

[Neela]

That’s what I thought - well your opinion than. But it won’t be the case sadly and u will never understand RDMs spot with that mindset. Always nice to read it again when raider think it’s their and only their game. ^^

But that’s a topic of its own and here is not the place to get that started... again. Fact is RDM atm just suffers like other jobs did in the past - nothing special. And it will change. Like balance always does but treating it like something exclusive to Rdm... is a bit over the top.

And yeah sure the current Blm is the biggest imbalance in history no doubt but that effects ALL DDs not just RDMs : /

[Razard]

Exactly how I feel with FFXIV duegons and raids lol

So you have nothing to add to the conversation. great.

Ok then, let me slow down and make my point less obtuse.

How do I put this so you understand? I don't want to be updated. I don't care how (what many call the worst era of) FFXI is doing. The point of it is that the stuff that made FFXI """great""" can't just be updated and brought over here wholesale and expected to work. FFXI was very much of it's time from a company that was basically fumbling through this whole MMO thing.

Also Hysterics and fainting couch drama is not going to help your argumentation. Which was my point before you took us on this worthless wild goose chase of a tangent. And the suggestions being asked to the original post I responded to where ludicrous.

All I can say is stop to proselytizing. I did my time and I much prefer this game.

[Katie_Kitty]

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

edit:



I know but meta was your answer on my call that they had problems as well before they got a place somewhere.
Just to underline they also had a way to go before they were in the spot you took for comparison tho.

You shouldn't ever be using vercure as a justification for imbalance. Vercure first of all is weak and second of all is on the gcd so you literally never want to use it when you could be doing damage instead.

[Sareal]

All I can say is stop to proselytizing. I did my time and I much prefer this game.

Couldn't agree more there. As someone who has played XI from release up until Adoulin, I can say that FFXI is very niche, and honestly the exception rather than the norm. Red Mage in XI was...definitely something, and not something I want to see in XIV.

I personally think Red Mage has kept it's identity, and I also think the job flows really well. If Verraise is the one thing that's keeping Red Mage from being competently balanced, then by all means, give it to Black Mages for all I care, or remove it. Raises from a Red Mage barely ever saves a Savage run, and most of the time our static will jump off the platform to die on purpose if someone died early or stupidly. Why risk a 0.1% wipe? It just seems unnecessary. I think all Red Mages need right now are a buff to their damage, and perhaps some minor tweaks here and there; I never was a fan of mobility abilities having significant potency, or any at all. I wish I could just use Displacement and Corps-a-Corps as mobility abilities rather than a part of my "rotation."

[Wayfinder3]

Couldn't agree more there. As someone who has played XI from release up until Adoulin, I can say that FFXI is very niche, and honestly the exception rather than the norm. Red Mage in XI was...definitely something, and not something I want to see in XIV.

I personally think Red Mage has kept it's identity, and I also think the job flows really well. If Verraise is the one thing that's keeping Red Mage from being competently balanced, then by all means, give it to Black Mages for all I care, or remove it. Raises from a Red Mage barely ever saves a Savage run, and most of the time our static will jump off the platform to die on purpose if someone died early or stupidly. Why risk a 0.1% wipe? It just seems unnecessary. I think all Red Mages need right now are a buff to their damage, and perhaps some minor tweaks here and there; I never was a fan of mobility abilities having significant potency, or any at all. I wish I could just use Displacement and Corps-a-Corps as mobility abilities rather than a part of my "rotation."

i agree with this especially the potency buffs too, however, while i can't deny the job has a flow. I believe that flow comes from a distinct lack of moving parts. red mage is VERY shallow when you really look at it and thats a very fair complaint to have. I personally would say that while the job is successful, it's only at a base entry level. Im not asking red mage to be harder, i'd just like more moving parts because there really isn't alot going on besides BWBW melee and thats very bland.