Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

[Excaliburnina]

My, my do we have some things to sort out here.

RDM has been bottom of the barrel alongside Dancer for the entire patch.

Objectively false; the lowest fight RDM ranks currently is E1S due to weaker cleave options, and even then it's still higher than MCH.

The discussion around Raise Tax is ludicrous.

Not really. Raise tax is a pretty viable concept when you consider how powerful battle raise can become. It's far too subjective and relies on far too many factors to truly quantify its use, therefore it's safer for the developers to make the job it's attached to a weaker one. Depending on the fight, the players fighting the boss, the jobs the players are using to fight the boss and what's going on with that specific group in the encounter battle raise can become the strongest button in the game. The opposite is equally true, where it can become one of the most useless buttons in the game. I understand where this gripe comes from because the few RDM that want to push it to its limits will feel that button's degrading usefulness as prog ends, but saying it shouldn't be considered for balance is just frivolous.

We know that "raise tax" isn't even a condition for RDM to have competitive output. Throughout Stormblood, RDM has always been on par with BLM.

I'm sorry, what?

Not to mention the fact that BLM's mobility vastly outperforms RDM's mobility in Savage right now - the single GCD of movement that RDM gets (dependent on standing still every 2.5 seconds) cannot compete with the on-demand chain of instant GCDs and multiple teleports that BLM have at their fingertips.

RDM vs BLM movement can be summed up in that RDM has an advantage when it comes to on-demand short-term movement, and BLM has the advantage for on-demand long-term movement. They do very different things, and you can argue fight design caters to one type of movement or the other but comparing them is a bit pointless.

Why would anyone bring a RDM when they could bring a BLM? Verraise is irrelevant here. Either you need the raise and you're not ready to clear (damage doesn't matter), or you are ready to clear and you just need more damage (non-healer raising wont save you).

Calling Verraise irrelevant is just to fit your woe-is-RDM narrative. Verraise's potential cannot truly be stated without trying to stick every single group at every skill level in some compartment, which will never work.

Just give us potency buffs to put us in line with the other DPS.

You're already there, though. The bottom half of DPS are all extremely close, and the melee chunk of DPS that are so much higher have indeed been recognized. Your desire for outcry is based in hyperbole and falsehood.

If you've really spent time on it you'd realize how much of a boon Verraise can be and how difficult it is to quantify and balance such a thing.

[Arete-Nomos]

Excaliburnina, I'm not sure why you're cherry picking misleading, unlabeled diagrams to discredit this argument. Ranged DPS can get buffs too without excluding Red Mage.

I don't know which percentile you're looking at for that graph, or why you're using normalized scores instead of aggregate amounts, but here are the numbers I am working with:

https://imgur.com/a/pX5M762

Most notably, this one:


Regarding the Stormblood figures, here are the numbers:

Delta
Black Mage
4,614.60
Red Mage
4,315.22
Difference
6.49%

Sigma
Black Mage
5,914.81
Red Mage
5,378.38
Difference
9.07%

Alpha
Black Mage
7,467.71
Red Mage
6,752.56
Difference
9.58%

Except the big difference now is that fflogs is recording rDPS, whereas the numbers we had from Stormblood were only pDPS. This means that Embolden wasn't factored into our DPS, and it added about 500 DPS in Alphascape. That would put Black Mage only 2.88% ahead of Red Mage.

The numbers we have for Eden, however, are the raw rDPS stats, which hides nothing. Black Mage is now actually that far ahead.


Eden
Black Mage
13,430.80
Red Mage
12,104.35
Difference
9.88%

And again, you miss my biggest concern here: Bards aren't competing for spots with Black Mages. Red Mages are. This fight isn't about anyone else, nor does it exclude anyone else. This has nothing to do with who is super low and who isn't. The problem is that Ranged were specifically called out for receiving potency buffs, and I want to see Red Mage's problems addressed as well.

[Nemekh]

Dualcast merely magnifies the problem. We all know the root of it is Raise being a castable option on both RDM and SMN as part of Yoshida's justification for balance being the way it is. Utility and Raise, where Raise most certainly is the more egregious factor. Once I've finished a few updates on rankings.akhmorning.com I'll make a thread on my thoughts to alleviate the vice grip.

[Marianno]

@MaelleRiou No. I would never want BLM to be subjected to this raise controversy. The best option would be to remove caster raise across the board and give RDM/SMN better party utility or make their already party utility more potent and/or worthwhile at the very least. Perhaps take away the decreasing potency on RDM Embolden. Make SMN Phoenix regen more worthwhile (up the potency on it but with reduced duration). Give RDM potency increases across the board...at the very least on its most damaging abilities. Fix SMN’s jank rotation by taking away or even combining some of its many OGCD abilities. For example, someone mentioned earlier that allowing Tri-disaster spell too be used as the norm would be a good idea. For RDM add some potency onto its melee rotation aspect and spell casting aspect. I would never want BLM to be subjected too this business with raise. I think the developers are simply struggling with how to balance the caster jobs with it. I do agree that this sort of thing doesn’t happen with other jobs in my opinion. Thus, it should not happen with casters.

[Duelle]

@MaelleRiou No. I would never want BLM to be subjected to this raise controversy.

Except if the entire caster DPS roster can use it, the controversy goes away. The "controversy" exists because certain jobs have something others do not, leading to BS like the raise tax to make up the difference. If you make a battle-rez role action that BLM, SMN and RDM can use and remove Resurrect/Verraise from the equation, it becomes standard part of the kit like Swiftcast and Addle. Now you can balance around gameplay and mechanics without worrying about wipe recovery making one more desired than the other (AKA what led to the current balancing issues).

At least from where I'm sitting, I can't see a scenario where the devs would have to nerf all casters because of Raise as a role action. Likewise, I can't see a scenario where casters are pushed out entirely because of it.

[Shurrikhan]

Why are we still pretending this raise tax is necessarily the explanation to our current imbalance?

SMN had previously carried more rDPS until the end of each expansion despite having Raise. As soon as blatant tuning issues were finally fixed for other jobs as well, RDM was sitting pretty within 1% rDPS of BLM, SMN in solo-caster parties, DRG, and even Ninja, despite having Raise.

We have an imbalance, yes. SMN and RDM are significantly undertuned. Not just compared to BLM, but to the whole top half of DPS: BLM, MNK, DRG, SAM, and now NIN. But, consider -- the same undertuning applies equally to BRD, DNC, and MCH, even though they don't have Raise, nor any utility of seemingly equivalent value (unless a 10% defensive of a 120-second CD should be worth some 15% of your rDPS, too). So we have a precedent of no Raise tax, and imbalance also affecting jobs without Raise. Why are we then equating caster imbalance to "Raise Tax"? It's not a logical explanation.

[Katie_Kitty]

Why are we still pretending this raise tax is necessarily the explanation to our current imbalance?

SMN had previously carried more rDPS until the end of each expansion despite having Raise. As soon as blatant tuning issues were finally fixed for other jobs as well, RDM was sitting pretty within 1% rDPS of BLM, SMN in solo-caster parties, DRG, and even Ninja, despite having Raise.

We have an imbalance, yes. SMN and RDM are significantly undertuned. Not just compared to BLM, but to the whole top half of DPS: BLM, MNK, DRG, SAM, and now NIN. But, consider -- the same undertuning applies equally to BRD, DNC, and MCH, even though they don't have Raise, nor any utility of seemingly equivalent value (unless a 10% defensive of a 120-second CD should be worth some 15% of your rDPS, too). So we have a precedent of no Raise tax, and imbalance also affecting jobs without Raise. Why are we then equating caster imbalance to "Raise Tax"? It's not a logical explanation.

Because yoshi has specifically pointed out raise as an explanation for lower DPS

[Shurrikhan]

Because yoshi has specifically pointed out raise as an explanation for lower DPS

He also pointed out immobility as a reason for higher BLM rDPS, despite their practical mobility being just as high as the other two casters in the confines of optimal play in the fights his team is making. He's rarely all that precisely in touch with the actual gameplay at high levels of performance.

And the Raise Tax still doesn't explain why ALL ranged or rDPS-heavy jobs save for BLM were performing at least some 7% behind pure DPS and lower-%indirect-contribution melee jobs.

[030320maf]

As a melee main, I wish SE would fix the issue with RDM, SMN and AST. Every e4s pf groups that I joined will need to wait nearly 1 hour or more for casters or healers. People just prefer to play melee nowadays because of higher dps.

[Nhisso]

My, my do we have some things to sort out here.


Objectively false; the lowest fight RDM ranks currently is E1S due to weaker cleave options, and even then it's still higher than MCH.

Not really. Raise tax is a pretty viable concept when you consider how powerful battle raise can become. It's far too subjective and relies on far too many factors to truly quantify its use, therefore it's safer for the developers to make the job it's attached to a weaker one. Depending on the fight, the players fighting the boss, the jobs the players are using to fight the boss and what's going on with that specific group in the encounter battle raise can become the strongest button in the game. The opposite is equally true, where it can become one of the most useless buttons in the game. I understand where this gripe comes from because the few RDM that want to push it to its limits will feel that button's degrading usefulness as prog ends, but saying it shouldn't be considered for balance is just frivolous.

I'm sorry, what?


RDM vs BLM movement can be summed up in that RDM has an advantage when it comes to on-demand short-term movement, and BLM has the advantage for on-demand long-term movement. They do very different things, and you can argue fight design caters to one type of movement or the other but comparing them is a bit pointless.

Calling Verraise irrelevant is just to fit your woe-is-RDM narrative. Verraise's potential cannot truly be stated without trying to stick every single group at every skill level in some compartment, which will never work.


You're already there, though. The bottom half of DPS are all extremely close, and the melee chunk of DPS that are so much higher have indeed been recognized. Your desire for outcry is based in hyperbole and falsehood.

If you've really spent time on it you'd realize how much of a boon Verraise can be and how difficult it is to quantify and balance such a thing.

*inserts at least you tried GIF*

lmao. Be more cringey