Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

[Sareal]

I believe that flow comes from a distinct lack of moving parts. red mage is VERY shallow when you really look at it and thats a very fair complaint to have.

Sure, it's a fair complaint to have. Though, I don't agree that Red Mage is shallow at all, as from my perspective, it is every other jobs that have become convoluted. I am drawn to Red Mage because of how "shallow" it is. Similarly, and I'm sure I will be burned at the stake for saying this, but I had alot more fun with paladin before it started pretending to be a caster. To each their own.

[Wayfinder3]

Sure, it's a fair complaint to have. Though, I don't agree that Red Mage is shallow at all, as from my perspective, it is every other jobs that have become convoluted. I am drawn to Red Mage because of how "shallow" it is. Similarly, and I'm sure I will be burned at the stake for saying this, but I had alot more fun with paladin before it started pretending to be a caster. To each their own.

quite. only a handful of jobs have become convoluted in my opinion. perhaps it's likely a matter of taste as i wouldn't exactly call a 5 gcd instant cast phase every minute, convoluted. it's very simple and isn't much different from using shield lob 5 times in a row every minute except it does magic damage. None of the tanks are all that convoluted and the only jobs i feel are teetering on that line too much are AST, NIN, MNK, and arguably SMN and MCH. everyone else is fine

red mage on the other hand is painfully straightforward to a fault. it really does boil down to BW BW melee repeat while using all your ogcds on CD and only a finite amount of depth to receive through manafication optimization.

[Sareal]

perhaps it's likely a matter of taste as i wouldn't exactly call a 5 gcd instant cast phase every minute, convoluted.

Tanks specifically, especially Paladin, isn't what I would refer to as convoluted. However, you did say you wanted to add depth to Red Mage, but stated that you did not want it to become harder to play. Paladin pops in my head, it added depth but it isn't harder to play, and it feels wholly unsatisfying. (to me)

I was fine with Paladin before they added this Requiescat gimmick, as much as I'm fine with the current flow and toolkit of Red Mage.

[Wayfinder3]

Tanks specifically, especially Paladin, isn't what I would refer to as convoluted. However, you did say you wanted to add depth to Red Mage, but stated that you did not want it to become harder to play. Paladin pops in my head, it added depth but it isn't harder to play, and it feels wholly unsatisfying. (to me)

I was fine with Paladin before they added this Requiescat gimmick, as much as I'm fine with the current flow and toolkit of Red Mage.

Im curious though, what about that gimmick is convoluted to you?

Red mage certainly can become harder for me personally, but difficulty and level of optimization shouldn't go hand in hand, it should be possible to add more moving parts to a job without making it far too complicated . we do see this with jobs like BLM who's really come into it's own with the amount of tools it's been given over the years but is arguably the best it's been since ARR.

[Sareal]

Im curious though, what about that gimmick is convoluted to you?

Read my messages carefully and you'll see that what I'm saying is quite the opposite. My wording was wrong, as I should've said "Every other DPS feels convoluted to me." (Yes, even Black Mage, but that's obviously my opinion.) Holy Spirit spam isn't convoluted, but it's a perfect example of adding depth that goes nowhere. The FFXIV community likes when things are complicated, that's fine, but what I'm saying is that, in my perspective, Red Mage is the only thing currently keeping me in the game as far as jobs go, so I wouldn't want to see it get less "shallow" as you've previously mentioned.

[Wayfinder3]

Read my messages carefully and you'll see that what I'm saying is quite the opposite. My wording was wrong, as I should've said "Every other DPS feels convoluted to me." (Yes, even Black Mage, but that's obviously my opinion.) Holy Spirit spam isn't convoluted, but it's a perfect example of adding depth that goes nowhere. The FFXIV community likes when things are complicated, that's fine, but what I'm saying is that, in my perspective, Red Mage is the only thing currently keeping me in the game as far as jobs go, so I wouldn't want to see it get less "shallow" as you've previously mentioned.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree here.

[Neela]

You shouldn't ever be using vercure as a justification for imbalance. Vercure first of all is weak and second of all is on the gcd so you literally never want to use it when you could be doing damage instead.

i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

[Rilifane]

i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

With the slight difference of Clemency having 1200 potency, making it a viable choice with high chances to prevent a death if shit hit the fan (in most cases their own if the healers managed to blow themselves up) while Vercure has only 350 potency. With my current gear I think it heals for around 11k or something.
This all fine and dandy for helping out the healer in a dungeon if the paper tank overestimated the amount of mobs he can safely pull but in raid enviroment it's essentially meaningless. I'm not denying that it's useful to solo FATEs, play the makeshift healer in boss FATEs/ hunts until the actual healer arrived, stabilizing yourself if you ate an aoe and the healer is busy babysitting the tank etc., but in all of those situations dps and escpecially dps gaps between jobs don't matter. Sleep has absolutely NO use in raids. Nonewhatsoever. But it can have it's uses in casual content. Do you see BLM getting taxed for it? Nope.
I have never, in all my time, seen a dps get excluded from hunts, FATEs or dungeons via votekick because their class was poorly balanced and thus at the bottom end of the dps meter.
I have (rarely) seen them get excluded for atrocious gameplay but never because of poor balance.

There's a difference between actually meaningful support/ survivability skills which are useful in every content, including extremes/ savage like Troubadour, Mantra, Second Wind or Manaward and nice gimmicks, which can be great in casual content but are basically meaningless in endgame content - like Vercure.
The latter should not be taxed in terms of dps.
Dps and balance makes next to no difference in FATEs or hunts. The people participating are geared completely different, you have fresh max level chars and inexperiences class hoppers as much as savage raiders killing downtime. Class balance doesn't matter in those cases, only personal performance makes an actual difference. And honestly, that's a GOOD thing, because you can happily play whichever class you like and nobody will exclude you from the fun for it. Treasure maps, hunts, FATEs, dungeons... it's completely fine to have a squad of dancers and red mages or two scholars etc.
While in endgame content class balance matters because everyone is expected to be geared and performing accordingly.

If a class is sought after in very specific content, where dps potential matters little, nerfing their dps across the board because of said skill, including for content where dps potential DOES matter but the taxed skill is actually next to useless, is an extremely short-sighted approach.

[AikenDrum]

Wait how utility tax (which is, surprise, damage) is supposed to balance jobs in content where damage is irrelevant? People would still be playing rdm in eureka even if blm was doing 3x its damage ^^

[Dogempire]

i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

Yes it is an advantage, but it's for the most part an irrelevant one unless your party is struggling with content, and things should never be balanced around the parties that can't optimize.

While it's true that these are things that red mage can use, they're for the most part largely irrelevant in the raiding scene considering a highly optimized party won't have red mage using either of those skills.

I'm largely for classes that have utility that makes them useful outside of raiding or unoptimized raiding, but said classes shouldn't really be taxed much if at all for it, otherwise you're taxing the good players for skills that only the bad ones have to use.

I mean paladin isn't given a clemency tax despite having an op self heal that's comparable to the heavier cooldowns healers use, and that's because no tanks use it outside of solo content.