Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

[SaberMaxwell]

It comes down to a few things.

1. Shifting burden of MP
2. Minimizing potential cost of GCDs
3. Availability outside Healer Role

Verraise in its current form does all 3. Summoner does it with 2, and with swiftcast can do all 3.

At the bare minimum, to equalize the casters, Black Mage needs 2 of those 3, and it needs it in a form that is either comparable to Summoner or unique to itself.

*looks at Mana Shift*

Or get rid of it, or make a role version and heavily reduce its frequency.

Personally I'm on team "get rid of it." I would compromise with "raise becomes a role skill." In either case, basically no matter the scope of Shurrikan's suggestion (increase verraise's cost (damage and mana gauge)), it wouldn't be enough, which is also sort of my point as a response to Shurri. Even back when verraise bankrupted RDM basically on first cast, you would find people saying "its fine their damage is low, they have verraise."

[Katie_Kitty]

Personally I'm on team "get rid of it."

okay soooo I have to ask you then how exactly is FFXIV RDM a Red Mage if the solution is to just get rid of raise? Without raise what we have is just vercure, then stone and aero which are supposed to be our "white magic." I don't like being told that we can't do better damage because of raise either, and apparently actually giving RDM real healing tools is a "bad idea", so in what way is this monstrosity of a class supposed to be a red mage? If we can't actually heal then we don't really use white magic, we're just a weak black mage with a crappy gimmick that's supposed to *represent* the use of white magic and a tacked-on melee combo.

[Razard]

snip.

But what you're suggesting is making RDM a weak white mage with a crappy gimmick.

Pick your poison.

Also what the previous fellow was trying to tell you was that if you shouldn't need "2 healers with a Red Mage in the party". You know for a fact people will find a way to heal with 2 RDM and get a rdps boost.

So how would we deal with that problem? Nerf damage? Nerf healing? Ooh ooh go the FFXI route and turn it into a refresh gimp that you dragged along, forced to sit in the corner and cast refresh every so often while the real jobs do their thing?

[Katie_Kitty]

But what you're suggesting is making RDM a weak white mage with a crappy gimmick.

Not even close, it would be a versatile caster/fighter hybrid with healing tools. You know... A Red Mage.

Also what the previous fellow was trying to tell you was that if you shouldn't need "2 healers with a Red Mage in the party". You know for a fact people will find a way to heal with 2 RDM and get a rdps boost

That sounds like more of a problem with raid design than anything else. RDM shouldn't be able to heal well enough to be the sole healer, but it *should* be able to heal well enough to be the secondary healer in a party with a single dedicated one. If the fights don't require a dedicated healer, then they should be made more healing-intensive.

So how would we deal with that problem? Nerf damage? Nerf healing?

I'm sure there are many ways they could go about it, but some ideas include making the heals themselves relatively weak but include beefy shields or strong regens.

They're not even trying with RDM right now, that's the problem.

[SaberMaxwell]

okay soooo I have to ask you then how exactly is FFXIV RDM a Red Mage if the solution is to just get rid of raise? Without raise what we have is just vercure, then stone and aero which are supposed to be our "white magic." I don't like being told that we can't do better damage because of raise either, and apparently actually giving RDM real healing tools is a "bad idea", so in what way is this monstrosity of a class supposed to be a red mage? If we can't actually heal then we don't really use white magic, we're just a weak black mage with a crappy gimmick that's supposed to *represent* the use of white magic and a tacked-on melee combo.

What kind of Red Mage is better at any white magic than White Mage? Why is Red Mage better at casting verraise than White Mage is at casting Raise?

This isn't a game where hybrids work. You want Red Mage to be a healer, that's the end-of for your suggestion. If RDM can stand in for a healer while being a DPS you've put the healer role on suicide watch...more than it already is.

[Katie_Kitty]

What kind of Red Mage is better at any white magic than White Mage? Why is Red Mage better at casting verraise than White Mage is at casting Raise?

RDM had both dualcast and raise as far back as FFV so it's not like it's unheard of.

You want Red Mage to be a healer, that's the end-of for your suggestion.

What's clear is that you *want* that to be the end-of for my suggestion, but in reality, no. I don't want RDM to be a healer. I want it to be the versatile caster/fighter hybrid RDM is supposed to be, and that means it should be able to heal. Why do you think "This isn't a game where hybrids work"? There's absolutely no reason why a hybrid should simply not be able to work, that is just an excuse for someone who is either too lazy to make it work or simply doesn't want it to work.

If RDM can stand in for a healer while being a DPS you've put the healer role on suicide watch...more than it already is.

You act like just because RDM has the capability to stand in for a healer that that automatically means every party is going to want a red mage to stand in for a healer. If your argument is "We need to stop Red Mage from being a Red Mage because then everyone would realize our game doesn't actually require two dedicated healers" then you might as well be saying the game should force people to take healers even when they aren't necessary. How is that supposed to be acceptable game design.

[Duskane]

It comes down to a few things.

1. Shifting burden of MP
2. Minimizing potential cost of GCDs
3. Availability outside Healer Role

Verraise in its current form does all 3. Summoner does it with 2, and with swiftcast can do all 3.

At the bare minimum, to equalize the casters, Black Mage needs 2 of those 3, and it needs it in a form that is either comparable to Summoner or unique to itself.

*looks at Mana Shift*

Or get rid of it, or make a role version and heavily reduce its frequency.

considering how each expansion they want healers to focus on more and more things
wont surprise me if SMN and RDM lose raise

and i welcome it tbh

[SaberMaxwell]

RDM had both dualcast and raise as far back as FFV so it's not like it's unheard of.

Did Raise cost more than a single turn to cast in FFV?

What's clear is that you *want* that to be the end-of for my suggestion, but in reality, no.

No, I'm just reading your suggestion into reality. There is no room for hybrids in Final Fantasy XIV.

I don't want RDM to be a healer. I want it to be the versatile caster/fighter hybrid RDM is supposed to be, and that means it should be able to heal. Why do you think "This isn't a game where hybrids work"? There's absolutely no reason why a hybrid should simply not be able to work, that is just an excuse for someone who is either too lazy to make it work or simply doesn't want it to work.

Final Fantasy XIV has been a supremely DPS-oriented game since Heavensward. Not even just DPS, but tanks and healers are likewise expected to output optimal damage. Paladin was left by the wayside because it couldn't output the DPS necessary to keep up with Dark Knight. Astrologian was initially left out because it didn't have the healing or damage necessary to keep up, and once buffed, it left White Mage by the wayside because their DPS couldn't keep up with the DPS that Astro offered to the party through cards; this continued throughout most of Stormblood. These are all non-DPS roles, left by the way because of DPS.

You act like just because RDM has the capability to stand in for a healer that that automatically means every party is going to want a red mage to stand in for a healer.

I act like that because that's reality. I'm going to come at this argument from two ways: for one, Solo Healing is already a thing in this game, and both Ultimates (hardest tuned fights in the game) were solo healed. Giving any room to take a DPS instead of a healer means that a DPS will be taken instead of a healer, especially if it can actually act as a sub-healer. Second angle: at the moment Red Mages are useless because of the gap between them and Black Mage in Savage: the gap between Red Mage and White Mage (strongest healer in rDPS) is much, much wider, so letting Red Mage stand in for a healer means that you would only ever take Red Mage + Healer, and in the worst case you'd probably have people going Red Mage + Red Mage as the healing duo, especially if both regens and shields are available to them.

In E4S 95th percentile, Black Mage is 14,846 rDPS. Red Mage is at 13,216. That's a difference of 1,630 rDPS. White Mage, the strongest healer, is at 7,421 rDPS. That's a difference of 5,795 rDPS. Almost 6,000 extra groupwide damage just for grabbing a Red Mage as the sub healer. If 1,630 rDPS is enough to invalidate RDM in favor of BLM, then 5,795 is more than enough to decimate any co-healing team one group may try to have. Again, keep in mind people already roll solo healing in this game, there would be plenty of groups that drop the two-healer standard to grab a Red Mage instead.

If your argument is "We need to stop Red Mage from being a Red Mage because then everyone would realize our game doesn't actually require two dedicated healers"

Everyone already realizes that this game doesn't need two dedicated healers. Red Mage can't be a sub-healer because it would decimate the healing role, which is already poorly balanced. If they made Red Mage a full healer, you'd have your fantasy because healers in this game already act as a hybrid "chucking heals and nukes in equal measure" style of gameplay. Hence why I stated your suggestion begins and ends with "Make Red Mage a healer."

then you might as well be saying the game should force people to take healers even when they aren't necessary. How is that supposed to be acceptable game design.

It's a gameplay design that has been the foundation since ARR, and countless times iterated upon to the point the game would need to be uprooted almost entirely, again. Even if you could convince them to take that financial leap, plenty of people like the game as it plays now, because that's the game they've gotten used to.

[Archwizard]

Even back when verraise bankrupted RDM basically on first cast, you would find people saying "its fine their damage is low, they have verraise."

On the other hand, those were players, not devs (who have been rather quiet about RDM all expansion aside from the MP buffs in direct defiance of that bankruptcy).

Personally I'd say heavily reduce its frequency for RDM without making a role version (like giving it a CD/limited charges), or as Shurri suggested (which I've also said before), make its DPS penalty per-use rather than a constant tax.
I can see SMN losing Resurrect, but I can't imagine any world where BLM gets access to a Raise even as a role action. Not to mention that that would mean giving a Raise to any future casters.

[Zyneste]

On the other hand, those were players, not devs (who have been rather quiet about RDM all expansion aside from the MP buffs in direct defiance of that bankruptcy).

Personally I'd say heavily reduce its frequency for RDM without making a role version (like giving it a CD/limited charges), or as Shurri suggested (which I've also said before), make its DPS penalty per-use rather than a constant tax.
I can see SMN losing Resurrect, but I can't imagine any world where BLM gets access to a Raise even as a role action. Not to mention that that would mean giving a Raise to any future casters.

The thing with raise is that just having it will incur a tax. It doesn't matter if you get penalized for using it. Just being able to raise is the issue, having it in your back pocket. Being able to raise a dead healer, when a BLM cannot is what causes BLM to get that boosted rebate DPS. "You don't have a raise of any form so here take extra damage for your troubles." Trading Recovery Utility for Damage is a terrible bartering system, but its the system we're bound to at the moment.

I've though about what Kabooa has said before too, I think it might be too on the nail cheesy though. An OGCD that gives a healer back 1/4 of their MP, and makes their next raise instantcast. Put it on a 1 minute cool down and its pretty similar to SMN in raise potential, with each having their own weakness. A little convoluted but gives BLM an option for recovery support. Most BLMs wouldn't want that though Id wager.