Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

[Archwizard]

no, this is the part where i tell you that you're nothing special. you've been through nothing vastly unique to other people, and only have 4 percentile to show for it with decent groups. which again brings my point up, what did you seek to gain from this? I was comparing against somebody who legitimately has not even stepped into savage. There's a comparison to be made there. This? next to nothing

What I find especially curious is that, as Wayfinder3 says, you seem to enjoy haunting RDM threads while acting as an authority on all subjects...

... when it appears you haven't actually unlocked RDM yourself. In fact, BLM is your only capped job.

I mean, go off on how RDMs apparently just want to be the "top pick for both speed kills and progression", but you're reading to me like a BLM with a sense of entitlement towards his raid spot who's constantly looking over his shoulder for that wild RDM ready to pounce from the shadows.

[Zyneste]

Okay.

How would you do this?

Because most of what's being asked for is potency buffs, and that doesn't fit this model well - When buffing is statistically a low part of total damage outputs, equalizing "RDPS" with potency buffs means the jobs who are "PDPS = RDPS" get edged out.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...5&dpstype=pdps

Take this as an example - Aggregate data of good runs.

Red mage's RDPS is 400 higher than it's ADPS (AKA PDPS + Group buffs). If we are to equalize the RDPS to Black Mage (~1900), and do this solely via potency buffs, then Red mage's ADPS is 15,400. At a glance this doesn't seem so bad, except for one thing.

The Black Mage is wholly independent of everyone else for its damage contribution. A Black Mage is always [arbitrary] number. It never changes on the group composition. It never changes on whether or not others capitalize on buff windows, for indeed it applies none.

If it's 15,000, it will always be 15,000.

If the Red Mage is 15,000, it can be 14,500. It can be 15,500. It can be [Personal +/- raid variance], and the issue is that raid variance isn't really that significant a portion of damage in the grand scheme of things. If at all levels of play the Red Mage should be in the same ball park as the Black Mage, it's a small raid variance with a high static value (Personal DPS).

And at that point, why even bother bringing the Black Mage? The Red mage will be just as good and can swing higher when your team is better.

That 700 more DPS the Black mage does (but not really - RDPS is RDPS, and they're going to be the same, if RDM won't be higher) means you kill faster. Sure, speedkilling.

When teams are pushing something along the lines of 100,000 DPS, 700 more dps would be .7%.

If your kill time with the Black Mage is 7:21 (441 seconds) then you kill time without one is 444.

I was just pointing out the model. The priority would still be for Max Raid Contribution: PDPS > Hybrid > RDPS.

In RDM's case it would be BLM> SMN > RDM.

So % max damage wise it would be something like: 100 > 96 > 94. This is just because of the raise tax model.

The ranged as an example in a "perfect world" would be something like this [assuming MCH is 100 for simplicity]

MCH > BRD > DNC
100 > 99.5 > 99

They're much more tightly knit because they have no reason not to be balanced close to each other.

In the grand scheme of things I would say something similar to this in overall rankings:

BLM: 100 [Stays the same]
SAM: 97.5 [Stays the same]
MNK: 97 [-2% from now. Lord is MNK broken.]
DRG: 96.5 [-.25% from now]
SMN: 96 [+5% from now]
NIN: 96 [-.25% from now]
MCH: 94.5 [+6% from now]
RDM: 94 [+5% from now]
BRD: 94 [+5%]
DNC: 93.5 [+4.5% from now]

What this does [aside from caster raise throwing it out of wack] is keep the same roles in similar damage, while keeping the lower roles high enough to stay relevant with the raid bonus. BLM should be king. RDM/SMN should be able to play nicely with a BLM by being able to fill the free slot typically claimed by melee [RDM will need magical embolden for that like we said.]

Edited numbers a little to show how wed need changes.

[Kabooa]

BLM: 100
SAM: 97
MNK: 96.5
DRG: 96
SMN: 96
NIN: 95.5
MCH: 94.5
RDM: 94
BRD: 94
DNC: 93.5

Now see, would everyone agree with this? I know a few who don't. They would think that still needs to be squished down further.Dancer being at something line the lines of 96-97, and then work your gradient from there.

I'm of the opinion that our current role division needs a significant revamp, though given SE's content model we're not likely to see that until a new expansion.

And not the next one.

[Wayfinder3]

no, this is the part where i tell you that you're nothing special. you've been through nothing vastly unique to other people, and only have 4 percentile to show for it with decent groups. which again brings my point up, what did you seek to gain from this? I was comparing against somebody who legitimately has not even stepped into savage. There's a comparison to be made there. This? next to nothing




On somebody trying to talk about something they have never even personally seen as though they understand what they're saying. They didn't, they haven't seen what the version of the game you want looks like, and its tiresome to see people being this blatantly ignorant to what is already history talking as though they're a subject expert. And as you seem to *perpetually plague every thread with some misguided vision that red mage should be a god tier caster. You don't believe it is but by what you want, it would just be smn 2.0, nothing less. smn and rdm could use a light buff, not being in a meta kill speed group. Because even people who aren't doing speedkills will lock out blm for the better blm that can raise if that becomes the case, for prog, for general reclears, for speed. Because average people are just... stupid, they don't care what they're group needs, they only care for what the "meta" is even if they have zero capability of properly using it.

Its all just so... tiresome.

suppose it doesn't even matter. I can tell you from experience that SE doesn't care whats on the forums. I'll tell you the future right now, blm will be right down in the gutter with you come next month, and you can change your scapegoat to smn after that.

RDM has never been a high dps meta pick over BLM( and thats okay) after patch 4.1, BLM has always contributed more than RDM even if SMN contributed more than it. WHO CARES ABOUT THE PAST, the game we're balancing is the one thats now, it's ok to look at the past to see what didn't work, but right now. all thats happened is that Pure dps is so strong that utility doesn't even matter, is this not what you hated in 4.0 Utility being so strong. How is the reverse any better. this is exhausting, im not replying to any more of your comments because you don't have a foundation to at least consider talking about. you're just fear mongering the idea that utility beats damage everytime when RDM and BLM have always been balanced where BLM was much stronger but RDM had some utility. the problem im trying to bring attention to is that BLM got MUCH stronger than RDM and RDM got no utility to compensate.

I wish you good health, and the ability to move on from whatever the utility meta did to you

Now see, would everyone agree with this? I know a few who don't. They would think that still needs to be squished down further.Dancer being at something line the lines of 96-97, and then work your gradient from there.

I'm of the opinion that our current role division needs a significant revamp, though given SE's content model we're not likely to see that until a new expansion.

And not the next one.

I agree with this and a model like this is all i've ever advocated for, Zerathor seems to believe that i wanted RDM to be the best when i've never implied such nonsense. there is no way RDM and BLM can be the same and RDM have a raise, as with SMN. But the gap between RDM/SMN and BLM doesn't need to be as atrociously big as it is now

[Zyneste]

Now see, would everyone agree with this? I know a few who don't. They would think that still needs to be squished down further.Dancer being at something line the lines of 96-97, and then work your gradient from there.

I'm of the opinion that our current role division needs a significant revamp, though given SE's content model we're not likely to see that until a new expansion.

And not the next one.

I was still editing it a little it looks more like this now, just to try and keep it as close to now as I could.

BLM: 100 [Stays the same]
SAM: 97.5 [Stays the same]
MNK: 97 [-2% from now. Lord is MNK broken.]
DRG: 96.5 [-.25% from now]
SMN: 96 [+5% from now]
NIN: 96 [-.25% from now]
MCH: 94.5 [+6% from now]
RDM: 94 [+5% from now]
BRD: 94 [+5%]
DNC: 93.5 [+4.5% from now]

What this does [aside from caster raise throwing it out of wack] is keep the same roles in similar damage, while keeping the lower roles high enough to stay relevant with the raid bonus. BLM should be king. RDM/SMN should be able to play nicely with a BLM by being able to fill the free slot typically claimed by melee [RDM will need magical embolden for that like we said.]

Edited numbers a little to show how wed need changes.

Would everyone agree? No of course not lol We all have our opinion, this is just from my collective play time/theory crafting where I would put the balance. Everything just needs to be close enough that the role bonus plus their rdps makes it a clear choice to have one of each in party.

[Zerathor]

What I find especially curious is that, as Wayfinder3 says, you seem to enjoy haunting RDM threads while acting as an authority on all subjects...

... when it appears you haven't actually unlocked RDM yourself.

I mean, go off on how RDMs apparently just want to be the "top pick for both speed kills and progression", but you're reading to me like a BLM with a sense of entitlement towards his raid spot who's constantly looking over his shoulder for that wild RDM ready to pounce from the shadows.

I like to step in when people spout utterly off the walls nonsense. It's kind of entertaining.

Haven't unlocked RDM because it's really not something I feel like playing. Not when it was released, or now. I can however appreciate experience of running with them and seeing their general statistics.

To your last point, you have not seen what the ultra 4 support meta was. It was just downright stupid and broken for no legitimate reason. I have severe doubt in SE to buff smn and rdm without outright making them overpowered, because that's just what they do. I see most people circle jerking here as the type that will not stop complaining until it's a hands down required job in a static.

[Kabooa]

I agree with this and a model like this is all i've ever advocated for, Zerathor seems to believe that i wanted RDM to be the best when i've never implied such nonsense. there is no way RDM and BLM can be the same and RDM have a raise, as with SMN. But the gap between RDM/SMN and BLM doesn't need to be as atrociously big as it is now

The model still has some issues, and one like this necessitates minimizing utility further. This is primarily why I would say that you wouldn't get unanimous applause for it.

You need only look towards the bards who lament the loss of the crit buff on songs, something they never interacted with, but the reality of it no longer being there contributing a blow to their job satisfaction.

[Zerathor]

I agree with this and a model like this is all i've ever advocated for, Zerathor seems to believe that i wanted RDM to be the best when i've never implied such nonsense. there is no way RDM and BLM can be the same and RDM have a raise, as with SMN. But the gap between RDM/SMN and BLM doesn't need to be as atrociously big as it is now

The picture and your stance not but a couple weeks ago claiming rez should not have a dps tax says otherwise, but it's good to see some change of heart towards common sense.

[Wayfinder3]

The model still has some issues, and one like this necessitates minimizing utility further. This is primarily why I would say that you wouldn't get unanimous applause for it.

You need only look towards the bards who lament the loss of the crit buff on songs, something they never interacted with, but the reality of it no longer being there contributing a blow to their job satisfaction.

unanimous applause is impossible to obtain, thats ok. The idea here is that no matter which route they take, The jobs should all be close enough and the disparities between roles shouldn't be as larges as they are now
Melee are way too strong compared to other roles
Caster is the weakest Role because of how strong BLM is compared to the other 2 and Ranged are fundamentally weaker as a result of being ranged, yet this current tier doesn't punish melee enough for that to be feasible and as a result, the gap between ranged and the other roles should also be closer. even if RDM isn't as strong as SMN or BLM, as long as it's contributing team is comparable to one with them, thats really the best thing we can achieve with balance beyond full homogenization.

[Shurrikhan]

To your last point, you have not seen what the ultra 4 support meta was. It was just downright stupid and broken for no legitimate reason. I have severe doubt in SE to buff smn and rdm without outright making them overpowered, because that's just what they do. I see most people circle jerking here as the type that will not stop complaining until it's a hands down required job in a static.

This is a non-sequitur. The quad-support meta existed because DRG was conditionally very strong and was easy to match timings to. No more, no less. Even in Deltascape, a MNK could sub in for a NIN or SMN at higher rDPS in a pure physical party, and by later Alphascape even RDM could sub in for NIN at higher rDPS in any fights with high melee uptime and more than minimal healing intensity. That meta was a consequence of Disembowel and the limits of Brotherhood and Embolden relative to Foe Requiem, Battle Voice, Battle Litany, Trick Attack, and Hypercharge, not rDPS itself. And it wasn't even any stronger an option than many other compositions by the end of Stormblood. Heck, by perfect BiS runs, a good BLM or MNK were already the highest rDPS outside of the BLM's pocket-Summoner. With Contagion gone, now it's just the two holding the lead. Not because their indirect contribution was especially powerful (or even existent, in BLM's case), but because that indirect contribution is only a small and very balance-able part of rDPS.

As for your "circle-jerkers", I'm seeing the opposite: I'm seeing a majority of people working under the assumption that something historically unprecedented, and which fails to actually explain the variance in rDPS across the DPS roster at all, must be true because our frequently unaware or underinformed producer has assumed it must be. I'm seeing people suggesting that there are properties which would warrant a job being inherently non-competitive for (read: banned from) farm status raids.