How to fix Summoner

[Goji1639]

I'm sure I'm the millionth player to throw out an idea, but honestly the only real problem I see with Summoner right now is target switching. So, I feel like the answer is simple and obvious...

Let's just remove the cd from tri-disaster and remove Miasma and Bio as separate skills entirely, once tri-disaster is available. If we have to nerf ruination to make up for it having more uptime then whatever, but I personally don't think the buff would be completely unwarranted.

If we need those dots up to do put out our real damage then they shouldn't be time consuming or prohibitive to apply.

[Mansion]

I'm sure I'm the millionth player to throw out an idea, but honestly the only real problem I see with Summoner right now is target switching. So, I feel like the answer is simple and obvious...

Let's just remove the cd from tri-disaster and remove Miasma and Bio as separate skills entirely, once tri-disaster is available. If we have to nerf ruination to make up for it having more uptime then whatever, but I personally don't think the buff would be completely unwarranted.

If we need those dots up to do put out our real damage then they shouldn't be time consuming or prohibitive to apply.

I'm not even sure I get your point, but as you say you're not the only one posting about things wrong with SMN, have a look at those topics. You'll see that target switch is barely even mentioned there. And actually, this problem was fixed in 5.08 where we don't have to re-apply DoTs to a low life target to have full potency Ruin spells.
Bane being a separate oGCD with a short recast is quite handy in dungeon situations for DoTing everyone.

[Goji1639]

Well, I'm mainly talking about boss fights where you have to kill objects or multiple stationary targets; stuff that doesn't stack up nice and clean for Bane. That's the only situation I've noticed where Summoner is notably hamstrung compare to pretty much every other class.

Not saying that Summoner doesn't have plenty of QoL issues that need addressing, but this is the only point where I'd consider the class broken. There's honestly no reason to make those DoTs such a pain to reapply outside of tri-disaster anyways.

I didn't know about the 5.08 change, that's nice at least; exactly how low life does the target have to be?

[Mansion]

Well, I'm mainly talking about boss fights where you have to kill objects or multiple stationary targets; stuff that doesn't stack up nice and clean for Bane. That's the only situation I've noticed where Summoner is notably hamstrung compare to pretty much every other class.

Not saying that Summoner doesn't have plenty of QoL issues that need addressing, but this is the only point where I'd consider the class broken. There's honestly no reason to make those DoTs such a pain to reapply outside of tri-disaster anyways.

I didn't know about the 5.08 change, that's nice at least; exactly how low life does the target have to be?

I don't remember figures, but the dreadfull scenario was having a pack of enemies with low HP (less than 10% I'd say), once you give up Outburst for Ruin (for weaving or for a two target scenario), then you'd have to re-apply your DoTs on targets (so 2GCDs plus one Bane) so you could properly cast Ruin with its full potency. But the mobs might die during that set up, but if you chose to Ruin without re-applying your DoTs, then you would do abysmal low damage...
This is over so we don't have to think about it anymore.


On the scenario you describe, I'm struggling to see an example where it's really detrimental to manually apply your DoTs on a static target that you can't Bane. Usually I think about timers : will the target live long enough to have the full duration of DoTs so that's it's worth DoTing it? There's a lot of elements to consider in a multi target scenario for SMN, but it's does not happen that often.
I'm thinking about the Hourglasses in first boss of World of Darkness for instance. You can't Bane, but you can tunnel vision on one target at a time with DoTs and Festers just like you can DoT several targets...

[Goji1639]

I don't remember the specific boss fight, but it was a scenario where the boss went invulnerable and you had to kill a bunch of stationary orbs in a circle across the entire stage as fast as possible. It's pretty much the only time my summoner has felt useless. I recall other fights with multiple stationary targets as well, but I've been doing most content as a healer for the fast queues.

I'll admit it's a fairly situational problem; and maybe it's one that doesn't come up in a lot of new content. Either way that's the mechanic that feels like it breaks the class.

[Kokonji]

so basically, just merge the two dots into one to "simplify" it ?

I don't remember the specific boss fight, but it was a scenario where the boss went invulnerable and you had to kill a bunch of stationary orbs in a circle across the entire stage as fast as possible. It's pretty much the only time my summoner has felt useless. I recall other fights with multiple stationary targets as well, but I've been doing most content as a healer for the fast queues.

I'll admit it's a fairly situational problem; and maybe it's one that doesn't come up in a lot of new content. Either way that's the mechanic that feels like it breaks the class.

Do you mean Xande's meteor from Crystal Tower 24-man alliance raid ?
the orbs already died too fast with the current gear-sync and the 24-man alliance itself, by patch 5.08 it doesn't matter if you put dot or not on the orbs, ruin will do full damage anyway

[Nemekh]

At 80 our DoTs are 7-8% of our total damage each for 14-16% total single target. There are several problems we currently face however this is not remotely close to a pressing concern. In fact, the 5.08 change was the most significant change to this scenario due to how punished our GCDs were on a target with no DoTs. Now our GCDs are always at max value.

[Neela]

Well, I'm mainly talking about boss fights where you have to kill objects or multiple stationary targets; stuff that doesn't stack up nice and clean for Bane. That's the only situation I've noticed where Summoner is notably hamstrung compare to pretty much every other class.

Not saying that Summoner doesn't have plenty of QoL issues that need addressing, but this is the only point where I'd consider the class broken. There's honestly no reason to make those DoTs such a pain to reapply outside of tri-disaster anyways.

I didn't know about the 5.08 change, that's nice at least; exactly how low life does the target have to be?

its like Nemekh said before... people who say smn are "alright" atm... just seem to lack in smn experience of the past at all... playing it since late ARR shb is the first expansion after 4,5 years I store my smn grimoire (the cls I got over 5k rolls on the eureka weapon as well) to prio 4 after Dnc, Gnb, Whm - and yeah that never happened the last 5 years a single time. So no... smn needs way more than just "plenty of QoLs" - to start with a solid image they want to go for... if its Demi... why nerfing Bahamut to the Ground? if it's Egi... cmn the potency is laughable... or Ruin...? really buffed by Dots? wtf...

not to mention that our static smn still made less dmg than our sam... with nearly 40 ACTIONS/skilluses more than the sam per fight... so eh where is that okay-ish?... wake up...

[CrimsonGunner]

its like Nemekh said before... people who say smn are "alright" atm... just seem to lack in smn experience of the past at all... playing it since late ARR shb is the first expansion after 4,5 years I store my smn grimoire (the cls I got over 5k rolls on the eureka weapon as well) to prio 4 after Dnc, Gnb, Whm - and yeah that never happened the last 5 years a single time. So no... smn needs way more than just "plenty of QoLs" - to start with a solid image they want to go for... if its Demi... why nerfing Bahamut to the Ground? if it's Egi... cmn the potency is laughable... or Ruin...? really buffed by Dots? wtf...

not to mention that our static smn still made less dmg than our sam... with nearly 40 ACTIONS/skilluses more than the sam per fight... so eh where is that okay-ish?... wake up...

all those stuff are still consider QoL fixes but they are Urgent QoL fixes that must be address.
summoner don't need to outdps sam but he need to have a proper kit and summons that need to matter to him which right now don't make a slight difference, right now they are just summon and forget.
also to remind all,summoner's were promised Egi-Glamour and got half assed system that can only change egi to carbuncle and even that has its bugs.
Summoner condition must be changed,it doesn't have to be full rework but Major QoL fixes must be made.

[Neela]

Since when is an identity crisis an QoL topic?
Personally I don’t wanna see a Nin like (hot)fix - just adjusting potency of every 2nd skill to „gain“ some dps if it doesn’t change the handling and „structure“ of the current gameplay at all (if you can call it that anyway...).