"New game plus - quests will have no rewards..."

[Niwashi]

That's just a matter of tuning then. So the exp rewards offered from NG+ quests would have to be just a little bit worse than the same amount of time spent in group content. But then you just do math and figure out where that reward level is.

The problem lies in how the time is determined, and in the wide difference between how long it takes to fully do a quest versus how long it takes to click past it.

In order to avoid all the efficiency maxers spamming this, you have to look at how fast it can be spammed while skipping all cutscenes and clicking as fast as you can past dialog. That's the speed, clicking through quests in seconds, that you have to make sure is still only mediocre XP/minute.

But if XP rewards are that low, then the people wanting to do the quests for real while leveling another job in the process aren't going to be getting enough XP to be useful to them. Those people aren't going to want to spam the quests a few dozen times over before they see any meaningful leveling progress.

XP isn't going to be enough to be useful unless it's way way above the threshold that would be widely exploited. Keeping it below that threshold leaves little point in going through all the effort of tuning XP rewards that aren't going to be useful anyway.

[DynnDiablos]

Anything in an MMO that causes people to take solo avenues instead of group avenues can negatively impact the group experience. This is precisely why they made Trusts as inefficient as they are, for instance. There's still potentially reason enough for some people to use them (insta queues for instance), but there's still many others that won't due to the fact they cannot play as efficiently as a party of human players.

If I don't want to play with others and experience the content on my own that is my choice. Everyone plays MMO's differently. I play this like a single player game where I sometimes have to interact with others. It is not by choice.

[Melichoir]

Still I don't think this would really be a thing in NG+. Like this theory really banks heavily on there being a LARGE number of players literally just spamming the same like six to ten quests over and over again, and while I'm sure there would be at least some players that did that, I doubt it'd be any kind of population worth worrying about. Eventually they'd move on or stop because what they'd be doing would be soul-crushingly boring.

You really underestimate the player base at times. In previous patches the fastest leveling methods were Pulling all mobs up to the first boss in Doma Castle, and spamming floors 50-59 over and over. Still think that latter one might be the case. Havent checked in a while. People are very quick to rationalize best bang for their buck timewise, even if it is excruciating. If spamming 5-10 quests nonstop was horribly boring to do, players would do it if it was the most efficient method.

That's just a matter of tuning then. So the exp rewards offered from NG+ quests would have to be just a little bit worse than the same amount of time spent in group content. But then you just do math and figure out where that reward level is. PotD didn't cause everyone to abandon the duty finder even though it was numerically superior to doing dungeons. I'd prefer not to assume the sky is going to fall down if something like this is done.

Problem is this is way easier said then done. We quite literally have 300+ quests in MSQ. Youre essentially saying "Go back and rebalance MSQ rewards so its just a little bit worse than everything else offered, but not so bad that you cant use it to level". As you point out yourself though, people will math things out and find efficiency. If you recieve 10% less exp to do a quest chain in MSQ, but you can complete that guaranteed in the same time a dungeon would take (if not slightly faster) people will do MSQ. Hell, MSQ provides a unique problem with that scenario too. It would not be to hard to set up a bot to do the same quest chain over and over. So you wouldnt have to do anything. Set your bot on at night to do an MSQ where its just run around and talk to NPCs. Whos gonna report you? MSQ is a personal thing, and unlike other bot activities which are more noticeable, this probably will be a lot harder to deal with.

As for PotD, no people still ran in duty finder, but then that was a choice between running a 4 man dungeon in DF and running a 4 man in PotD. Both had the same risk when dealing with other players. Now itd be comparing running a 4 man in a dungeon vs just doing things yourself.

Btw, even if MSQ gave reduced exp, this doesnt solve the initial complaint. Instead of "Why no exp" the argument just shifts to "Why isnt it as good as a dungeon" or "As much exp as MSQ normally?" Considering how vocal certain complaints have been, I am personally skeptical that people wouldnt complain just as hard if the exp values werent comparable to duty finder content. After all, the complaint isnt that NG+ exists, its more about having another avenue to level with. Pretty sure with reduced exp rates, people will consider it a non-optimal method of leveling and deem it a half assed job the devs did and say that this is a worthless feature.

[Callinon]

You really underestimate the player base at times. In previous patches the fastest leveling methods were Pulling all mobs up to the first boss in Doma Castle, and spamming floors 50-59 over and over. Still think that latter one might be the case. Havent checked in a while. People are very quick to rationalize best bang for their buck timewise, even if it is excruciating. If spamming 5-10 quests nonstop was horribly boring to do, players would do it if it was the most efficient method.

I didn't say no one would do it, I believe I said there would definitely be some that did. What I said was that it wouldn't be enough to cause problematic congestion, which was the issue I was addressing.

Problem is this is way easier said then done. We quite literally have 300+ quests in MSQ. Youre essentially saying "Go back and rebalance MSQ rewards so its just a little bit worse than everything else offered, but not so bad that you cant use it to level". As you point out yourself though, people will math things out and find efficiency. If you recieve 10% less exp to do a quest chain in MSQ, but you can complete that guaranteed in the same time a dungeon would take (if not slightly faster) people will do MSQ. Hell, MSQ provides a unique problem with that scenario too. It would not be to hard to set up a bot to do the same quest chain over and over. So you wouldnt have to do anything. Set your bot on at night to do an MSQ where its just run around and talk to NPCs. Whos gonna report you? MSQ is a personal thing, and unlike other bot activities which are more noticeable, this probably will be a lot harder to deal with.

The existence of bots that level really fast is .. very clearly .. not something SE is concerned about.

As for PotD, no people still ran in duty finder, but then that was a choice between running a 4 man dungeon in DF and running a 4 man in PotD. Both had the same risk when dealing with other players. Now itd be comparing running a 4 man in a dungeon vs just doing things yourself.

But again, what do you think the negative is here? Fewer people in DF that couldn't give less of a shit about what they're doing? I can live with that.

Btw, even if MSQ gave reduced exp, this doesnt solve the initial complaint. Instead of "Why no exp" the argument just shifts to "Why isnt it as good as a dungeon" or "As much exp as MSQ normally?" Considering how vocal certain complaints have been, I am personally skeptical that people wouldnt complain just as hard if the exp values werent comparable to duty finder content. After all, the complaint isnt that NG+ exists, its more about having another avenue to level with. Pretty sure with reduced exp rates, people will consider it a non-optimal method of leveling and deem it a half assed job the devs did and say that this is a worthless feature.

People will complain about literally anything. You're never (ever) going to please 100% of a large group of people. It can't be done. The existence of complaints is also not a reason to not do it.

Giving people an alternative leveling path, even if it's numerically inferior to dungeon grinding, is a good thing for the game. I'd have to go back and look but I don't remember deep dungeons getting this kind of backlash when they were talked about as a leveling path. Nor trusts. Why is this one special? Why would giving exp for NG+ be so horrible whereas those things weren't? Again I remind you that the sky is not falling.

[Melichoir]

I didn't say no one would do it, I believe I said there would definitely be some that did. What I said was that it wouldn't be enough to cause problematic congestion, which was the issue I was addressing.

I think this is where we disagree. Depending how efficient the exp is, I could see a situation where it will push up queue times 5 or more minutes for DPS. I think there is a misconception regarding MMOs in that people play MMOs specifically to do content together. I think its more accurate that MMOs offer people a new means to socialize not over content, but that people will opt to do player content solo while using Linkshells/FC/Discord as their means to socialize. Not socialize via dungeons and content directly. How many runs have you done in DF where its dead silent after the barrier drops in a dungeon or Trial? Youre more likely to find chatter in Limsa pub gen than in DF. So it is more likely to me that yes, you will push queue times up and hurt DPS particularly by doing this.

The existence of bots that level really fast is .. very clearly .. not something SE is concerned about.

Youre literally arguing SE doesn't give a crap about bots cause they exist, so lets design a system that makes botting even easier cause why not. This goes back to an earlier point I made with investment and exp. This is the same issue. If you can just bot your way to 80, you have less investment in the game overall and more likely to be toxic due to unrealistic expectations. Not to mention people dont typically like playing MMOs if theyre perceived as a bot fest.

But again, what do you think the negative is here? Fewer people in DF that couldn't give less of a shit about what they're doing? I can live with that.

As much as I like to rag on the quality of DF, a majority of its players are average and do pay attention. Yes, there are bad players but they dont make up the lions share. Even with the baddies, if its only one guy, you can plow through DF at a decent rate anyways.

However, Youre essentially saying you want less people in DF while banking on the concept that "not that many people will opt out of DF" so that queue times remain similar. Then again, this kinda demonstrates you dont have a stake in DF as it is. If DF is a problem with players in it, why wouldnt you opt out of DF and do NG+?

This gets worsefor newer players, because they cant just use NG+ to level. They actually have to clear the content. But who cares about them, right? Pff, they can sit in those queues or deal with baddies, or whatever.

People will complain about literally anything. You're never (ever) going to please 100% of a large group of people. It can't be done. The existence of complaints is also not a reason to not do it.

Giving people an alternative leveling path, even if it's numerically inferior to dungeon grinding, is a good thing for the game. I'd have to go back and look but I don't remember deep dungeons getting this kind of backlash when they were talked about as a leveling path. Nor trusts. Why is this one special? Why would giving exp for NG+ be so horrible whereas those things weren't? Again I remind you that the sky is not falling.

If you cant please everyone and complaints will always happen, why are we distinguishing between your complaint about no exp, vs someone elses complaint regarding reduced/inefficient exp? Neither of them has any ground for saying that their complaint has any more legitimacy because its "People just complaining about literally anything" and it just is a matter of subjective opinion.

IIRC Deep dungeons did get backlash, but even then its still apples to apples and wasnt as bad. Party content to party content. It's not Party Content to solo content you can possibly blast through which might be a detriment to the overall health of the game. Also inferior to dungeon grinding is based on a few factors. For a tank, dungeon grinding is probably the fastest leveling method (and even then its debatable to some extent). But to a DPS? MSQ might be faster due to queue times alone even if its soul crushingly boring. Alternative leveling paths also matter by how that affects the game. Again, alternative leveling path where its party content - probably ok within reason. Alternative content that removes party play - probably not so much unless very carefully balanced against. Trusts themselves are extremely inefficient and already have people questioning why theyre a thing or that their exp gains/ai/etc should be tweaked so trusts are more on pair with DF.

As for pushback theres a few points youre not picking up on. Most of the people who are happy with NG+ in this thread arent saying "We dont want it to have exp ever." Most are (or were now that the discussion has shifted in a partisan issue) indifferent to the exp thing. The pushback came when people were complaining NG+ doesnt have exp, therefore is trash and should not have been made. That position is literally "If this thing doesnt give me what I want, no one should have it." It's not a position people who wanted NG+ for the story are fond of, particularly when the complaint issued by the "It's Trash" crowd is one that they self inflicted by expecting something never even mentioned or promised.

Beyond that, when people with the "Its Trash - Therefore shouldnt have been made" speak up about it , ask why it didnt get exp, and then chalk it up to SE incompetence, other people are offering up plausible reasoning why SE devs might have opted for no exp.

And thats where were at in this conversation - Arguing about the speculation why EXP wasnt a thing. No the sky isnt falling, and werent arguing that exp shouldnt be in NG+. Far as I am concerned if they want to add it, thats their call. Everything Ive offered up and suggested has been trying to explain reasoning as to why they might not implement exp. Thats it. As Ive also said, no one is a bad person for wanting exp in NG+ and being bummed it isnt happening. I draw a line when the argument is NG+ is crap and shouldnt be implemented/invested in cause without exp its worthless.

[Callinon]

I'm not quoting all that, Melichoir. You just spent an enormous post putting words in my mouth and attacking positions I haven't taken and arguments I haven't made.

If there's something in particular in all that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. If not then yeah.. you win, your strawmen were no match for you.

[Melichoir]

I'm not quoting all that, Melichoir. You just spent an enormous post putting words in my mouth and attacking positions I haven't taken and arguments I haven't made.

If there's something in particular in all that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. If not then yeah.. you win, your strawmen were no match for you.

Look, you want to believe Ive been strawmanning you, go for it. You do you. My overall point has been the same thing. You want exp in NG+ and are bummed it might not be happening. Thats ok in my book, personally. Its perfectly fine to want something in the game and be bummed it might not happen. Ive said that a few times through out this thread.

You want to suggest there'd be nothing wrong with EXP in NG+ and provide examples, dont be surprised if people dont agree with you. I, for one, think there might be and the devs seem to feel there is a problem. Thats an assumption Im making but thats fine. If Im wrong, then so what. World will spin on. In the end, it doesnt matter what you or I think, only what the devs think. We can debate and disagree or agree or whatever, it doesnt change anything broadly.

If you want exp in it, Its fine to advocate for it. Doesnt impact me in that regards, and I get the feeling most people who are happy with NG+ regardless of the exp arent gonna give you to much pushback for that point of view. The concerns I expect to see is implementing it might cost the feature or game quite a bit. But thats an open debate topic.

I draw the line with people in the thread when they start trashing NG+ or the devs because it doesnt have exp, particularly since that assumption was something that they came up with - not something that was ever discussed or promised in my recollection. The "How dare they waste resources on this, its not gonna be used, NG+ needs exp to be even worth having" crowd. Whether you fall into that or not is up to you. I dont think you do as of right now, regardless if I disagree with you over other ideas and thoughts.

[Adeacia]

Giving people an alternative leveling path, even if it's numerically inferior to dungeon grinding, is a good thing for the game. I'd have to go back and look but I don't remember deep dungeons getting this kind of backlash when they were talked about as a leveling path. Nor trusts. Why is this one special? Why would giving exp for NG+ be so horrible whereas those things weren't? Again I remind you that the sky is not falling.

The other things you mentioned are group content. MSQ is not. That is your answer.

[Callinon]

The other things you mentioned are group content. MSQ is not. That is your answer.

That's why I included trusts. Trusts are solo content.

[Driven]

Sorry this may have been asked earlier in this thread, but will this also bring up more 4man trials in the dungeon roulette? Per people going through the missions again?
I might be weird but I like the idea of doing those more often.