Thread: BLU MAGE...PATCH 5.1...HMMMMMM?

Originally Posted by HarryTipper

I know i posted this in another BLU thread already, but since it's relevant again...

Originally Posted by Auryan

Interesting information for an unverified census. Though I do have some questions and follow-up questions.
First one. The data goes back to last February, correct? A month or so after BLU was added in 4.5.1. Does the data take into account late adopters? Why not do a tally of the number of unlocked and completed BLUs after two months+ instead of barely a month?

Second question. What are the criteria for something to be considered "successful"? 100% adoption and completion rates? That's crazy. 80%? I don't think so. Does it have to compete completion wise with expansion jobs like SAM and RDM? Or given its status as side activity will have to be compared to other content like GS/Eureka/DoH/DoL? Apples and apples, and some such.

Third question. You touched on Savage. Something less than 10% of the entire base participates, let alone completes. By your conclusion regarding BLU, shouldn't they then focus on content that is more popular than something as niche and "poor performing" as Savage?

The data only tells me so much, but I'm missing context to put it all into perspective. And without that I'm only expressing my preconceived biases. And that just won't do.

I imagine he just didn't think it was important enough to follow up on after Blue Mage released, especially given how the reception went. I don't imagine those numbers would climb by any significant margin within a month or two.

It depends on the content. Savage, for example, is specifically aimed at a smaller demographic who a reasonable challenge. Bear in mind, because it shares development resources with Normal mode, it's essentially a two-for-one deal. Blue Mage, on the other hand, was intended for the casual playerbase, and released at a time where there was a massive content lull. The fact it did so poorly when there was very little happening as we wanted for Shadowbringer speaks volumes.

Like I said, context is important. Savage isn't aimed at the wider playerbase.

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I imagine he just didn't think it was important enough to follow up on after Blue Mage released, especially given how the reception went. I don't imagine those numbers would climb by any significant margin within a month or two.

It depends on the content. Savage, for example, is specifically aimed at a smaller demographic who a reasonable challenge. Bear in mind, because it shares development resources with Normal mode, it's essentially a two-for-one deal. Blue Mage, on the other hand, was intended for the casual playerbase, and released at a time where there was a massive content lull. The fact it did so poorly when there was very little happening as we wanted for Shadowbringer speaks volumes.

Like I said, context is important. Savage isn't aimed at the wider playerbase.

Given what reception? From whom? The forum? Reddit? They only represent themselves and not the player base as a whole. Of course you should take into account people who pick up content at a later date. I mean it happens for Savage and Eureka for example. Why not BLU?

Yes, it depends on the content. Not all content are meant to appeal to everyone. I do take an issue on how you're creating false categories to arbitrarily split BLU and Savage. You can just as easily call Savage (and any content for that matter) as "something to do" when during a content drought. I remember hearing that criticism towards Eureka too. Huh, it's funny that BLU and Eureka can be called as disposable content, but not Savage or Ultimate. I'm guessing something to do with 'niches', right?

What do you mean that Savage isn't aimed at the general playerbase? They have tried for a while to get more people to do it, and not just the hardcore few. With Ultimate out, they have been trying to make it even more accessible for the casual player. I can't tell you if that's working, since I don't have the numbers. But at least I'm not jumping the gun and calling the attempt a failure and encouraging SE to abandon ship and focus on more popular things that I like.

The fact is that despite fulfilling a niche, Savage and Ultimate are still done by a select few, despite SE trying to make it appealing to a wider audience, yet you're not calling that a failure and waste of time and development. You're even rationalizing it by mentioning how relatively cheap it is to develop Savage/Ultimate, while not giving BLU the same benefit (BLU learns skills that are already in-game, borrows gear from casters, no weapon stats, no need for balance, etc). Why do you suppose that is?

Originally Posted by Auryan

Given what reception? From whom? The forum? Reddit? They only represent themselves and not the player base as a whole. Of course you should take into account people who pick up content at a later date. I mean it happens for Savage and Eureka for example. Why not BLU?

Yes, it depends on the content. Not all content are meant to appeal to everyone. I do take an issue on how you're creating false categories to arbitrarily split BLU and Savage. You can just as easily call Savage (and any content for that matter) as "something to do" when during a content drought. I remember hearing that criticism towards Eureka too. Huh, it's funny that BLU and Eureka can be called as disposable content, but not Savage or Ultimate. I'm guessing something to do with 'niches', right?

What do you mean that Savage isn't aimed at the general playerbase? They have tried for a while to get more people to do it, and not just the hardcore few. With Ultimate out, they have been trying to make it even more accessible for the casual player. I can't tell you if that's working, since I don't have the numbers. But at least I'm not jumping the gun and calling the attempt a failure and encouraging SE to abandon ship and focus on more popular things that I like.

The fact is that despite fulfilling a niche, Savage and Ultimate are still done by a select few, despite SE trying to make it appealing to a wider audience, yet you're not calling that a failure and waste of time and development. You're even rationalizing it by mentioning how relatively cheap it is to develop Savage/Ultimate, while not giving BLU the same benefit (BLU learns skills that are already in-game, borrows gear from casters, no weapon stats, no need for balance, etc). Why do you suppose that is?

The fact that even in-game Blue Mage were nigh non-existent less than a week after its release? While the forums, reddit and discord communities don't make up a large portion of the community, whenever opinions are extremely lop-sided, they tend to be what the community feels overall. That reception alongside these unofficial census is more than enough data to suggest Blue Mage performed quite poorly. Key word being suggest. It isn't definitive nor did I say otherwise.

You could. You'd also be mistaken. Since you bring up Ultimate. That content was exclusively designed for the 1% and arguably exceeded its niche when you consider it attracted more Twitch viewership than any other content in this game's entire life. And it cost the dev team very little as it reused almost everything. Basically, it was huge value due to its low cost and what it set out to accomplish. Savage aims for a higher demographic but falls under a similar niche, yes. You are ignored my mention that Savage shares development with Normal. As one essentially has slightly more mechanics and higher scaling. Only Titan this tier had an entirely unique phase. Put simply, they're developing Normal mode and Savage together.

Furthermore, the Savage tier was no longer new in 4.5. By the time Blue Mage released, Savage was 15-16 weeks old. It's a bit disingenuous compare the two as "something to do" when one just released as a brand new piece of content the game hadn't done before while the other had been out for nearly four months.

Trying to attract more people do Savage isn't the same as trying make it appeal to the general playerbase. This is entire game is decidedly casual minded, thus Savage will never appeal to the greater majority nor has it ever been intended to. They're targeting a midcore scene, which they have since Creator. Funny enough, you bring up Eureka yet the dev team outright acknowledged they designed Pagos for the "narrow elite player-base to go deeper." Which they admitted was a poor decision in hindsight, and likely what led to such divisive opinions regarding said content.

You're trying to create a correlation that do not exist. SE only made Savage appeal to a wide raid audience not the general playerbase. And they expressly stated Ultimate was only meant for those seeking a significantly harder challenge. It was never intended for anyone but the more hardcore players. Blue Mage does not fall into either category, thereby making them not comparable.

Originally Posted by Auryan

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You stated flat-out that BLU "performed badly" and used an unverified census to prop up your dislike of the content. Now you're trying to create deniability by saying you were only "suggesting"? Okay, sure.

Apparently, I had to spell out specifically because despite originally citing it as the "unofficial census," which should imply it's not a 100% objective analysis. You accused me of claiming it was.

Originally Posted by Auryan

YI wasn't actually comparing the number of people still doing Savage come 4.5 with BLU. I was comparing the rates of completion for Savage from 4.4 all the way to 4.5 with BLU. That Savage/Ultimate had a small number of people doing it, and even less completing it in the span of months. That's okay though, since it's 'niche'. While side activity like BLU isn't 'niche' and thus has to be <this level of> popular to justify its existence, for some reason? But okay, I'll concede in saying that Savage/Ultimate have a distinct purpose for a subset of the player base. Though I wasn't suggesting that Savage will ever appeal to a majority of players. I don't think any content, besides the MSQ and maybe GS actually reaches a majority of player participation. Because like you said, XIV is a casual, theme park MMO that offers something for everyone. And not everyone will take try out or like every attraction.

Yes? The part you seemingly keep missing is the scope of players they're trying to reach. I certainly don't think it's a stretch they intended for Blue Mage to be for a significantly larger audience when they dedicated a whole segment of the Fanfest Live Letter to both it and the Limited Job concept. They even slotted right after the Data Center split, which they knew wouldn't go over well. Now I'm merely speculating here but I suspect that was done intentionally with the hope it would quell the fires. They were booed. At Fanfest. Not loudly but audibly enough you could hear on stream. I know plenty of people who attended NA Fanfest that verified the reception was not kind. As for your mention of Savage and Ultimate, you outright claimed they were attempting to appeal towards a general audience. That typically refers to your average player. Even if it may not be the majority, it still implies they intended for Savage to be attempted by the average player when that hasn't ever been the case.

Originally Posted by Auryan

Then why not do a more appropriate comparison of content. Let's say...DoL/DoH vs. BLU. It's been two months after ShB's release. What do you think the numbers are for the adoption and completion rate (to lvl 80) of the gatherers? Are these numbers what we can be considered "successful"? And are these numbers comparable to BLU's completion from mid Jan to mid March?

You're comparing battle content and collection against crafting and gathering. Not only do they have very different appeals, the targeted demographic is going to be different. In fact, only now have they even dedicated much attention to either activity. It should also be noted upgrading items you can craft necessitates significantly less resources than designing whole new battle systems. Not to mention, crafting as a whole will always pepper off following the initial rush because gil has so little value in this game, and the gear they can make becomes outdated. Now with the Restoration of Ishgard forthcoming, you could maybe compare the two in terms of resources spent at the very least. We'll see how that pans out when 5.1 launches.

That being said, given how little interest Blue Mage seemed to attract, I suspect crafting did better. It certainly saw more longevity.

Originally Posted by Auryan

And you're Pagos' statement, while you summed it up correctly, it doesn't actually mean what you think it means. The appeal for Pagos isn't the same for Savage/Ultimate. Where Savage appealed to the elites' desire for difficult encounters, Pagos was an appeal to the elites' tolerance and like for grinding; a throwback to old MMO's like XI. I mean, I did Pagos with few issues, completed Hydatos and BA, yet never set foot in Ultimate. I'm not that kind of "elite", I guess.

That was their design and their wording, not mine. Anyone would tell you it was a flawed perspective and rather foolish comment from the onset. Once they put the relic in Eureka, it was never going to be "elite" in any sense of the word since the relic has always been a general attraction.