Yo those QOL for DOH & DOL

[MomomiMomi]

Then
Don't
Use
Macros
When
You
Craft.

Have you ever used MaMa back when it was 40 something steps? That's basically what crafting has become. A series of pressing buttons over and over again without any thought whatsoever. Choosing not to use macros doesn't change how mundane crafting has become. It's very robotic.

[Lunavi]

P.S. --> Well, unless you want to incorporate complex math equations. That would be fun. For me... but most other players would not enjoy that so it's not a good idea.

I 100% don’t see the problem if this would be the case for the highest tiers. You don’t see Marcos that makes you 100% complete Savage raids/Ultimate fights despite it not being accesible to everyone, I can’t see why this should not be the case for endgame crafting/Gathering as well to make it more valueable. Extra points if they can make it impossible for bots to do it in the process.

[JunseiKei]

Oh it's definitely tedious. But that's the trade. You can either get the materia quickly by buying it from other people, or you can get it cheaply by spending time generating scrip instead.

When 5.05 launched, I knew I'd be spending a good chunk of my day making white scrip collectables to buy all the grade 8 materia I'd need. But then you just do math. Ok I'm going to make this item, and each materia costs this much scrip.. I need this many materia, so I need this many items... go. After those, overmelding was a process of making about 10k yellow scrip per day until I was done with all my melds. I bought the grade 1 and 2 materia to fill holes, but those were cheap. Grade 3s are, for some reason, super expensive on my server so I used grade 4s in those slots and just ate the over-cap stats because grade 4s are much easier to get.

Gathering is ... yeah. But it's the same thing at its core. You need X materia, so that costs Y scrip, which means Z collectables. You can either do it with collectables over a long period of time, or gil over a short period of time. That trade-off doesn't go anywhere.

All other aspects of the game has mitigated RNG, but crafter/gathering melds and materia acquisition have not been for a considerable amount of time.

[NanaWiloh]

I 100% don’t see the problem if this would be the case for the highest tiers. You don’t see Marcos that makes you 100% complete Savage raids/Ultimate fights despite it not being accesible to everyone, I can’t see why this should not be the case for endgame crafting/Gathering as well to make it more valueable. Extra points if they can make it impossible for bots to do it in the process.

A good rotation like the one I use will 100% complete craft no matter how the input is done, macro or manually. Dont know where this idea that using macro's magically 100% crafts came from. A garabage crafting rotation is still garabage even if its used through a macro. If you dont like macro's dont use them and enjoy the tedious nature of hitting every button in a 25 step rotation.

[Berethos]

It's a shame unnecessary simplification has been a focal point of a lot of the changes in Shadowbringers.

A lot of crafting jobs have too much unnecessary/redundant/unused abilities, or cross-classing abilities that were made redundant/unneeded by Stormblood (and even more so in ShB).

Tell me - other than when you started, how often do you use certain earlier abilities? I don't think I've used the basic, standard, or advanced touch in...a year and a half? And that was when I was last leveling a crafter from below level 50.

[NanaWiloh]

Here is one of the reasons crafting is a joke. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true# This guide just rips the system apart and makes crafting 71-80 a complete joke. As long as theory crafters are around the crafting system will be a joke as they will release guides like this that break it down.

[Callinon]

You don’t see Marcos that makes you 100% complete Savage raids/Ultimate fights despite it not being accesible to everyone

Holy false equivalency, Bat... wait a minute I just did that.

Where did this idea come from that crafting is equivalent to raiding? Or should be?

Weaving a rug and killing a dragon are not the same thing. I'm not even sure why that has to be said, but this just keeps coming up.

[Melichoir]

Then
Don't
Use
Macros
When
You
Craft.

Why do players always insist on removing features they don't like from every player that does like them? Why? I have never understood that.
And no one is suggesting that players macro their raid rotation. This is a discussion about crafting. Please stay on topic.

Because if you could complete play savage with Macros alone, that would entail the system must be simplified to a point where it could be 'autopiloted'. Thats the issue. Macros in crafting means the system is so formulaic, simplified, and predictable that it can be done with macros alone. Thats the point Im making. You say "oh dont use macros," but that doesn't address the fact the system has pretty much become so 'braindead' for crafters that you can craft about anything HQ so long as you have the right macro and good enough gear. And that gear thresh hold isnt that high. Youre essentially saying "nah, keep it braindead so I can use my macros and not care", where as if they wanted to increase the complexity and interest of the crafting system and that ends up nixing macros, this is all of a sudden "how dare they take away my braindead macro spamming in favor of making the game funner for people who have a deep interest in crafting". While I understand macros are a part of the game, gonna go out on a safe bet they did not intend for them to essentially be how a class is played. If it were the case, thats extremely poor design on their part. Not faulting players for figuring out Macros work, but simply dont complain and get indignant when people request they make crafting more interesting and you might not have that 'shortcut' anymore.

Holy false equivalence, Batman!

Umm no. What is craftings 'savage' equivilance? High end/HQ gear/consumables/etc. Imagine instead of having to think about how you play it, you can just get decent gear and press only 2 macros and beat any boss fight. Yeah, thats the point. It becomes uninteresting and as I described above, entails the content is way to simplified. Crafting is the same way. If its to simple that it can be done without any thinking and just pressing a macro then afking, its probably to simple and uninteresting for its own good.

[Nabril]

Have you ever used MaMa back when it was 40 something steps? That's basically what crafting has become. A series of pressing buttons over and over again without any thought whatsoever. Choosing not to use macros doesn't change how mundane crafting has become. It's very robotic.

And there is no way to stop it from being robotic unless you add in split second timing and/or complex puzzle solving into each craft. If you simply add in decision, it WILL become just as mundane and tedious as it is now because there will only be a finite number of decisions that everyone has already seen a thousand times. By your third craft, you'll have seen all the new "decisions" which will all boil down to, "push green, now push blue, now push red". Bots will be made to do this because pushing the correct button for decision C will be just as boring as crafting now if we weren't using macros.

I've yet to hear a single idea from you anti-macros other than, "make it interesting, but not complicated." Why don't one of you type up a proposal with legitimate examples and we'll show you why it'll get boring after 5 minutes of using it.

[Nabril]

I 100% don’t see the problem if this would be the case for the highest tiers. You don’t see Marcos that makes you 100% complete Savage raids/Ultimate fights despite it not being accesible to everyone, I can’t see why this should not be the case for endgame crafting/Gathering as well to make it more valueable. Extra points if they can make it impossible for bots to do it in the process.

Why do you people keep thinking that crafting needs to feel like raiding? No one here, but you and one other person wants to discuss using macros in raids. That has nothing to do with crafting. STAY ON TOPIC. Stop straying. Start a new thread on macros in raids if you really feel the need to discuss it. I'm not going to discuss it here. A macro that does your raid rotation has no basis on this topic.

What makes you so special that you're in favor of you being one of the few who could succeed in crafting end-game gear? Your goal, based on your post, is to make it as complex as possible so that the majority of the player base can't figure it out, right? I promise you that those who can solve each riddle of top tier crafting will indeed write bots to do it for those who cannot.

And how hard do you want this? Engineering level? Community College level? Doctorate level? How hard is too hard for you to be satisfied that only the best of the best can do it? Please, all I want is one solidly laid out expectation, but all I get is, "Make it so it ruins macros" or "ruins bots" or "ruins it for those not smart enough to craft top tier"

I want specifics... why can't I have any?