Yo those QOL for DOH & DOL

[Nabril]

Because if you could complete play savage with Macros alone, that would entail the system must be simplified to a point where it could be 'autopiloted'. Thats the issue. Macros in crafting means the system is so formulaic, simplified, and predictable that it can be done with macros alone. Thats the point Im making. You say "oh dont use macros," but that doesn't address the fact the system has pretty much become so 'braindead' for crafters that you can craft about anything HQ so long as you have the right macro and good enough gear. And that gear thresh hold isnt that high. Youre essentially saying "nah, keep it braindead so I can use my macros and not care", where as if they wanted to increase the complexity and interest of the crafting system and that ends up nixing macros, this is all of a sudden "how dare they take away my braindead macro spamming in favor of making the game funner for people who have a deep interest in crafting". While I understand macros are a part of the game, gonna go out on a safe bet they did not intend for them to essentially be how a class is played. If it were the case, thats extremely poor design on their part. Not faulting players for figuring out Macros work, but simply dont complain and get indignant when people request they make crafting more interesting and you might not have that 'shortcut' anymore.



Umm no. What is craftings 'savage' equivilance? High end/HQ gear/consumables/etc. Imagine instead of having to think about how you play it, you can just get decent gear and press only 2 macros and beat any boss fight. Yeah, thats the point. It becomes uninteresting and as I described above, entails the content is way to simplified. Crafting is the same way. If its to simple that it can be done without any thinking and just pressing a macro then afking, its probably to simple and uninteresting for its own good.

This is about crafting. Please stay on topic. No one but you is suggesting we macro raid content. Using macros on raid content is unrelated to this thread. Stay on topic.

[Melichoir]

This is about crafting. Please stay on topic. No one but you is suggesting we macro raid content. Using macros on raid content is unrelated to this thread. Stay on topic.

I am on topic. Please stop saying "Stay on topic" as a means to dismiss my attempt at analogy as to why Macros in Crafting might be an issue. Ive gone ahead and clarified my point for your specific sake. Id encourage you to read it and try to understand my position instead of hand waving it as being off topic.

[Nabril]

I am on topic. Please stop saying "Stay on topic" as a means to dismiss my attempt at analogy as to why Macros in Crafting might be an issue. Ive gone ahead and clarified my point for your specific sake. Id encourage you to read it and try to understand my position instead of hand waving it as being off topic.

Speaking about macros in raiding is not on topic with crafting. I don't know why you think that it is. Macros in crafting has nothing at all to do with any content or actions that is raiding. I read your clarification before posting that comment and it didn't hold up. It didn't hold up because that's like equating eating an apple with flying an airplane. The two are nothing alike.

You would know this if you were a crafter. Well, you have Carpentry up to 55, but that's not a lot of experience in the crafting business.

[NanaWiloh]

I am on topic. Please stop saying "Stay on topic" as a means to dismiss my attempt at analogy as to why Macros in Crafting might be an issue. Ive gone ahead and clarified my point for your specific sake. Id encourage you to read it and try to understand my position instead of hand waving it as being off topic.

I read your post sorry too say Macro's are not what take thinking out of crafting. Its the detailed guides that rip the system down and provide all the information needed to craft. Theory crafters are who take away the thinking part not macro's, macro's just remove the tedious nature of hitting multiple buttons. Its just like how dungeon guides on youtube remove all mystery and need to figure out a bosses mechanics.

[Lunavi]

Holy false equivalency, Bat... wait a minute I just did that.

Where did this idea come from that crafting is equivalent to raiding? Or should be?

Weaving a rug and killing a dragon are not the same thing. I'm not even sure why that has to be said, but this just keeps coming up.

Why? I compare the highest tier content of one branch of content to the highest tier of content in another branch of content, I don't get why people put combat gameplay (raiding in particular) at a sacred pedestal as the only piece of content that should ever be allowed to have any value or difficulty at all attached to it. Just because crafting right now is just to copy-paste a macro and then press a button to do said macro does not mean it has to be. I get it, it is as in the nature of the task not the same thing and should not have the same gameplay as most people who mainly craft are out after other kind of content than raiding. Of corse it would be different content, but it would not just be to spam one button for hours as the endgame for it.

[Melichoir]

Speaking about macros in raiding is not on topic with crafting. I don't know why you think that it is. Macros in crafting has nothing at all to do with any content or actions that is raiding. I read your clarification before posting that comment and it didn't hold up. It didn't hold up because that's like equating eating an apple with flying an airplane. The two are nothing alike.

You would know this if you were a crafter. Well, you have Carpentry up to 55, but that's not a lot of experience in the crafting business.

I wonder if you even read what I wrote. I clearly am setting up what most would call "an example" to help illustrate why macros being used to complete content might be an issue. You keep gettign fixated on "Oh youre talking about raiding and macros, and that has nothing tod o with crafting!"

Also, I always love the "Argument from Authority" - that kind of argument that people like to use to push off points without actually addressing them because they know best. I only have a level 55 crafter, so its just impossible for me to talk to people within my FC, friendslist, Discords, or other places about these things! Its not like I cant read a guide, listen to people discuss this, have people explain it to me or friends of mine, or anything. Nah, since I have only a level 55 crafter, I am completely incapable of formulating a thought on the subject.

So again, If macros render all gameplay moot, then it entails the gameplay is so simplistic and formulaic that it is most likely not interesting or engaging. Youre arguing about keeping macros as part of the crafter ideal, and in doing so, are arguing that any changes to crafting has to remain within a range where you can use a macro to do it all. That limits what can be done and doesnt solve the issue of it being unengaging. You are opposed to changes that make crafting more fun and engaging because it might remove macros, especially since that would require more investment from you beyond pressing a button macro.

So you want to actually discuss my position this time around and address my core point instead of getting hung up on the example or dismissing it cause "Oh hes only got a lvl 55 crafter, therefore doesnt know jack".

I read your post sorry too say Macro's are not what take thinking out of crafting. Its the detailed guides that rip the system down and provide all the information needed to craft. Theory crafters are who take away the thinking part not macro's, macro's just remove the tedious nature of hitting multiple buttons. Its just like how dungeon guides on youtube remove all mystery and need to figure out a bosses mechanics.

Actually this just highlights another issue: I would hazard a guess that a lot of people end up just googling crafting macros and pop them in. Yes, theorycrafters do simplify the whole thing, but it should still be up to you to use judgement and a level of skill to actually play the class. Much like reading a guide can give you great insight, it doesnt give you the ability to perform to perfection. Practice is necessary too. Ive read plenty of guides on fights, on classes, and the like, but I am by no means the best raider ever. Because it is more than just the info.

However, This isnt the case with macros in regards to crafting. The macros literally take out any skill involved, and your enemy is simply RNG at that point. You quite literally do not have to fully understand how it works and can have almost max success with it.

Thats is partly a design failure. Im not gonna fault theorycrafters, or people who use the macros for this. Its a dev problem. I am saying, however, that getting upset the devs might address teh class and that might remove macros, is kind of a silly position. Now if you want it to be a mystery on how it works, well, thats a bit more complicated. Im not sure if devs can deliver on that. People have a knack for breaking things down to their smallest details for min/maxing. So keeping it where you 'have to figure it out' is a bit hard. I guess teh argument at that point would be more akin nabril's point about not using macros. Dont use the guide at that point and learn it yourself. But thats a knowledge, exploratory aspect that is harder to balance against, rather than a skill check/mechanics interest that can be bypassed through complete automation.

[NanaWiloh]

Here is crafting/gathering guide:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

Here is a macro using the guides rotation:
/ac "Inner Quiet" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not II" <wait.2>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <wait.2>
/ac "Ingenuity II" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Name of the Elements" <wait.2>
/ac "Brand of the Elements" <wait.3>
/ac "Brand of the Elements" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis III" <wait.3>

Now ask yourself which one is removing all thinking and learning?

[Melichoir]

Here is crafting gathering guide:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

Here is a macro using the guides rotation:
/ac "Inner Quiet" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not II" <wait.2>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <wait.2>
/ac "Ingenuity II" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Name of the Elements" <wait.2>
/ac "Brand of the Elements" <wait.3>
/ac "Brand of the Elements" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis III" <wait.3>

Now ask your self which one is removing all thinking and learning?

Simple: Can I plug that in and will it craft for me? If it will accomplsih what Im looking for, then I dont need to understand how the macro operates. I just need to have the items/gear for it and go.

Im being sincere when I was literally offered macros to expedite the crafting process. I didnt have to understand how the skills operated. I was simply told "Do this and itll work." For those who want to know the process, and more so for those who may want to design their own macros, more info is required of course. But if I level a crafter to 80 without actually crafting, and then do a cursory 20 minute read on crafting and get the macro, I will be able to craft HQ so long as I meet the gear checks and have the appropriate items. Its not a matter of my 'skill'. Its a matter of my finding the right macro and using that to do it for me.

That would mean, broadly, that the class is probably to formulaic for its own good. This is a partial problem with its design. There is no skill check. If you dont care about the class being complex and simply want it to do a thing then this is all fine and dandy.

Let me put it another way - Since the prevelance of 'do-it-all' macros, why even bother having any skills? Why not just simply make it an issue of just having mats and pressing make and it be an RNG process where if you have higher gear/items, youre success rate goes up? If it accomplishes the same thing, but no longer requires the macro, what difference would it be to players like Nabril?

[NanaWiloh]

I wonder if you even read what I wrote. I clearly am setting up what most would call "an example" to help illustrate why macros being used to complete content might be an issue. You keep gettign fixated on "Oh youre talking about raiding and macros, and that has nothing tod o with crafting!"

Also, I always love the "Argument from Authority" - that kind of argument that people like to use to push off points without actually addressing them because they know best. I only have a level 55 crafter, so its just impossible for me to talk to people within my FC, friendslist, Discords, or other places about these things! Its not like I cant read a guide, listen to people discuss this, have people explain it to me or friends of mine, or anything. Nah, since I have only a level 55 crafter, I am completely incapable of formulating a thought on the subject.

So again, If macros render all gameplay moot, then it entails the gameplay is so simplistic and formulaic that it is most likely not interesting or engaging. Youre arguing about keeping macros as part of the crafter ideal, and in doing so, are arguing that any changes to crafting has to remain within a range where you can use a macro to do it all. That limits what can be done and doesnt solve the issue of it being unengaging. You are opposed to changes that make crafting more fun and engaging because it might remove macros, especially since that would require more investment from you beyond pressing a button macro.

So you want to actually discuss my position this time around and address my core point instead of getting hung up on the example or dismissing it cause "Oh hes only got a lvl 55 crafter, therefore doesnt know jack".



Actually this just highlights another issue: I would hazard a guess that a lot of people end up just googling crafting macros and pop them in. Yes, theorycrafters do simplify the whole thing, but it should still be up to you to use judgement and a level of skill to actually play the class. Much like reading a guide can give you great insight, it doesnt give you the ability to perform to perfection. Practice is necessary too. Ive read plenty of guides on fights, on classes, and the like, but I am by no means the best raider ever. Because it is more than just the info.

However, This isnt the case with macros in regards to crafting. The macros literally take out any skill involved, and your enemy is simply RNG at that point. You quite literally do not have to fully understand how it works and can have almost max success with it.

Thats is partly a design failure. Im not gonna fault theorycrafters, or people who use the macros for this. Its a dev problem. I am saying, however, that getting upset the devs might address teh class and that might remove macros, is kind of a silly position. Now if you want it to be a mystery on how it works, well, thats a bit more complicated. Im not sure if devs can deliver on that. People have a knack for breaking things down to their smallest details for min/maxing. So keeping it where you 'have to figure it out' is a bit hard. I guess teh argument at that point would be more akin nabril's point about not using macros. Dont use the guide at that point and learn it yourself. But thats a knowledge, exploratory aspect that is harder to balance against, rather than a skill check/mechanics interest that can be bypassed through complete automation.

Macro's dont remove rng I can run the rotation I posted with manual inputs or macro inputs and get the same results everytime. Its the button rotation and rng that determines success not how the rotation is inputted. Macro's dont alter crafting difficulty at all they just remove tedious button pushing. You want the system harder then the only way to get it is too over haul the crafting system itself.

[Nabril]

I wonder if you even read what I wrote. I clearly am setting up what most would call "an example" to help illustrate why macros being used to complete content might be an issue. You keep gettign fixated on "Oh youre talking about raiding and macros, and that has nothing tod o with crafting!"

K, one last time and then I'll just report your post. Crafting is nothing like raiding. The two cannot be compared. Your only crafting class has like 4 maybe 5 buttons to hit that are viable to get something crafted. You don't even KNOW the abilities people are using in their macros because you haven't even unlocked them. You know nothing about top tier crafting. That's got to be the reason you think that crafting is like raiding. There's no other explanation. The two are nothing alike. There. I'm done with you. Your entire argument is that you don't like using macros in crafting because you shouldn't use macros in raiding. That's your one and done argument and it's been shot to hell by multiple people on this thread. Keep it up and you'll get reported for trolling.