Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

[Jimmymagic]

You guys are entertaining I'll say that.

Ridiculous to think or even entertain your or my supremacy at job/class for video game. By all means, continue you "tactful solutions" on implementing better performance while NOT acknowledging improvement in your own performance.

I have yet to play with any player on any MMO that was "perfect" I certainly am not. I get the op intention Is good and thoughtful. Good intentions lead to misunderstandings all the time.

For example I see another DRG in my raid party who is not doing combo rotations to get buffs or place debuff. I notice because that is what I main. I offer an him an explanation on how I learned the rotations from a mentor of a really tight FC....
They tell me to F---off I play what I pay....

Now, do retaliate with a real crusher, do I vote kick, or do I just let it go.

My point is no matter how badly the player imho is playing I always have an option albeit with consequence. Perhaps improving my performance to help others BY EXAMPLE is better fit then you know the usual retort---this player sucks kick----I assume they don't care because they don't listen to my advice---cant fix stupid---I've played since beta I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT (my fav)---My time is valuable learn your job or stop playing---

If you care that much of how others play a video game then maybe you need to take a break.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Ridiculous to think or even entertain your or my supremacy at job/class for video game. By all means, continue you "tactful solutions" on implementing better performance while NOT acknowledging improvement in your own performance.

I do think about and critique my own performance. Here's an example: I often get lazy on hitting Lucid because WHM can nearly ignore MP management in a lot of fights, if they go well. Meaning when things go south, I can suddenly find too much spell left at the end of my mana. But being introspective doesn't make me ignorant to poor play from others.

It's a lot easier to get a big increase in results from improving a heavily suboptimal player than a decent or better player. For a more specific example, it's easier to get X000 more DPS from the player with a bad rotation or who only wants to heal, than it is for someone in the 75th percentile to squeeze that number out of further optimization.

I will tell you why people dislike when you call them out for things: it gives off the impression that you think you're superior.

Sometimes, in regards to specific tasks or knowledge sets, people are superior to others. Everyone has equal worth as a human being, but the value they bring to specific circumstances is variable.

There are a lot of bad things that can happen when this difference between specific value and intrinsic worth is forgotten, in both directions.

[TheForce]

I do think about and critique my own performance. Here's an example: I often get lazy on hitting Lucid because WHM can nearly ignore MP management in a lot of fights, if they go well. Meaning when things go south, I can suddenly find too much spell left at the end of my mana. But being introspective doesn't make me ignorant to poor play from others.

It's a lot easier to get a big increase in results from improving a heavily suboptimal player than a decent or better player. For a more specific example, it's easier to get X000 more DPS from the player with a bad rotation or who only wants to heal, than it is for someone in the 75th percentile to squeeze that number out of further optimization.

Sometimes, in regards to specific tasks or knowledge sets, people are superior to others. Everyone has equal worth as a human being, but the value they bring to specific circumstances is variable.

There are a lot of bad things that can happen when this difference between specific value and intrinsic worth is forgotten, in both directions.

I see, well, it can't just end there. It will lead to a deeper discussion, what exactly makes one's playstyle superior? Sure, in some cases it will be rather obvious to tell (for example, I would say that Paladin A is a superior tank to Paladin B if they use their defensive CDs and Paladin B never does), but in others, not so much. Is it maximizing damage? Is it player comfort? Is it maximizing safety and mitigation? Do not just automatically say "hurr durr big deeps duh", it's not that simple. There's a lot more that goes into making a run enjoyable and comfortable than just killing stuff fast. The problem with just automatically assuming you're superior is that you're ignoring other possible options, it's "your way or the highway", essentially. And that is narcissistic behavior. Not saying I totally disagree with you, just wanted to give you something to think about.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

I see, well, it can't just end there. It will lead to a deeper discussion, what exactly makes one's playstyle superior? Sure, in some cases it will be rather obvious to tell (for example, I would say that Paladin A is a superior tank to Paladin B if they use their defensive CDs and Paladin B never does)

Anything I'm going to actually notice with strangers mid-instance, when I can actually talk to them, is going to be obvious things. If I actually need to look at a log to see the errors, then it's not something to bring up with randoms in normal content.

Besides, the question is easy to answer in FF14. It's whatever leads to the fastest run with the fewest errors. There are only a few cases in FF14's game design where those principles conflict, and almost all of them have to do with maintaining uptime or variant play with assumed handicaps (e.g., min ilvl runs). The latter really shouldn't be done with a non-consenting party, and I say this as someone who queued into Sirensong drastically undergeared because I knew I could still heal double pulls on it (I still made the run go slower vs. myself in full Shire), and the former can be rude and dangerous too in a party with strangers.

but in others, not so much. Is it maximizing damage? Is it player comfort? Is it maximizing safety and mitigation? Do not just automatically say "hurr durr big deeps duh", it's not that simple.

Safety and mitigation almost always goes hand in hand with maximizing damage. Less incoming damage = less healing = more room for healers to DPS. Aside from PLD wings, there are few defensive skills which are flat DPS loss anymore. Again, taking a hit to maximize uptime is also an exception, and I do think if you're not communicating with the healer you shouldn't do it.

Assessing player skills and comfort is a valid reason to slow down (and a great skill to have), but a tank or healer who feels they can only single pull in a basic dungeon based on their own ability is probably in need of practice, advice, or better gear. They should be willing to listen to advice, even if they can't be expected to advanced towards multi-pulling that very run. The big exception is the disabled; if someone literally cannot or would be put into significant pain trying to accomplish a given task, there's no point in trying to push the matter.

There's a lot more that goes into making a run enjoyable and comfortable than just killing stuff fast. The problem with just automatically assuming you're superior is that you're ignoring other possible options, it's "your way or the highway", essentially. And that is narcissistic behavior. Not saying I totally disagree with you, just wanted to give you something to think about.

I don't, and I don't think many players looking to give advice, automatically assume. We hypothesize based on empirical data: DPS, HPS, cooldowns used, how often someone fails mechanics, can the tank keep aggro? Observing these things over several encounters, even in an abstracted form like "how fast did the pull take?" for things like DPS which cannot be assessed without outside tools, reveals patterns of play. Consider this my something to think about to you: the game is largely numbers and pass/fail mechanics, and this makes it quite easy to assess performance.

And as I previously said, anything noticeable and severe enough to need redress in an instance with strangers is probably a pretty cut and dry case. Failing a mechanic once? Everyone makes mistakes. Fail it over and over? Have a totally botched rotation? Gross misuse of cooldowns? Gear 50+ ilvls behind content? These are the things people normally offer advice about.