Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

[Deithwen]

We aren't talking about about people who are fat fingering, or learning new skills here. We are talking about people who are actively not trying to learn, and scolding people for handing them advice to improve.

The best example I can give is my old static had a dancer. He wasn't at all pulling his weight anywhere near what a dancer should be - and when I brought this up to someone they had mentioned that he could do more damage auto-attacking.

When I confronted him, he got in my face about it. Explained that he only failed because I wasn't calling out mechanics for him. That if I couldn't tell him what exactly he was doing wrong with a class I didn't play at the time, that I needed to keep my mouth shut. That's the type of people I'm talking about. It's very easy to spot people who AREN'T willing to learn because they do little damage, and just push buttons when we have a library worth of resources to go through for each class.

I'm in no way asking for perfection, but I am asking that people who queue into +50 content at least have the very basic understanding of the class they are playing - which seems to still be lacking in level 80 content.

I can't agree more with you. I have seen people not trying at all, hiding behind excuses like "chill out it's a lv77 dungeon" and yet we've been here for more than 30mins because they did not bother to aoe, do their rotation or even perfrom the mecanics. I've been called an elitist because I called out someone who died on the final boss and released on purpose, and was just standing at the entrance while we were doing the hard work. It took almost 15 minutes to kill it, I was the only person actually trying to pull my weight and compensated for all their mistakes. I even had to place markers on the ground so they could at least survive what was coming (and they were not new at all, they all had some lv80 jobs already).

This was a leveling dungeon, level 77. And yet, I was called names, I was told that those persons had a life and paid bills hence I should chill out. As if all the persons who can actutally play properly were just a bunch of nerds, failure of humanity who should be grateful that those "real life workers" and "bills payers" bless them of their presence. Sure mate, I work and pay bills too, what's your point?

This is just an example, I have had tons of similar situations since I have been playing.

Fortunately, I have also had plenty of great runs, and met a lot of nice people. But all in all, we need to stop this entitled mentality and have a way to make people understand that any group content is a common effort shared among the team.

[Krotoan]

I mean...then why even bring it up?

See, if I was tanking and you said that out of the blue like that, that would piss me off a bit and I'd most likely just ignore you. That's a small nitpick and by even mentioning it you're giving off the vibe that I don't know what I'm doing/you think you're superior to me when you are not.

Because in this hypothetical facepulling may not be the optimal strategy and possibly ranged pulling would make it go more smoothly. It was an example. If you always take suggestions as personal attacks or veiled superiority complexes I don't think the problem lies in the suggestions.

[TheForce]

Because in this hypothetical facepulling may not be the optimal strategy and possibly ranged pulling would make it go more smoothly. It was an example. If you always take suggestions as personal attacks or veiled superiority complexes I don't think the problem lies in the suggestions.

The difference is negligible, Christ who cares if it isn't the most "optimal" way of pulling. As long as the Tank can do his/her role (hold aggro, keep themselves alive, respect mechanics, not overpull to the point that it's a wipe, etc.) that's all that truly matters. Maybe the Tank in question just finds it more enjoyable to do it the other way? As long as he/she is not ruining the group, it's chill. It's okay to have a personal preference, but don't try to enforce it on someone else (especially the person who's in charge of pulling, if you want to pull like this when you're tanking, then go crazy), that is rather vain.

For example, in every single Ex Primal I tank, I always Voke first then use my ranged attack. I love how much range Voke has so it's my preferred pulling skill, and I just used the ranged attack to establish proper aggro. Is this the most "optimal" way to pull? I don't know, and I really do not care. Why? Because it works for me & it doesn't hurt anybody. If someone tried to critique me because of that method, yes I would be annoyed because there's no meaningful reason to, you're just trying to nitpick and dictate my playstyle based on what you personally want. And that is a bit disrespectful.

Also, nice assumption, just because I find issue with the "suggestion" you listed, yes, I must have some kind of personal problem and be against all feedback /eyeroll.
Come on dude, stop it. You know next to nothing about who I am or what kind of player I am, so trying to tell me about myself as you're doing right now is almost laughable. If this is how you speak to people in game (I really hope it's not), then I understand why you would you'd find yourself in conflict.

I want to tell you something: when you give out suggestions because of remedial things, you are essentially telling the other person "Hey, you don't know what you're doing. I know what's best, so do this." Even if your intent is pure, that is what it comes across as. Here is a rule of thumb I've followed for years that I've had very positive results from: As long as people are playing their roles (Tanks holding aggro and popping CDs, healers healing/shielding, DPSs doing decent damage) and respecting mechanics, and progressing through the instance, just leave them alone.

Like another great poster said, we are just fellow players, not authority figures.

[Jybril]

We aren't talking about about people who are fat fingering, or learning new skills here. We are talking about people who are actively not trying to learn, and scolding people for handing them advice to improve.

The best example I can give is my old static had a dancer. He wasn't at all pulling his weight anywhere near what a dancer should be - and when I brought this up to someone they had mentioned that he could do more damage auto-attacking.

When I confronted him, he got in my face about it. Explained that he only failed because I wasn't calling out mechanics for him. That if I couldn't tell him what exactly he was doing wrong with a class I didn't play at the time, that I needed to keep my mouth shut. That's the type of people I'm talking about. It's very easy to spot people who AREN'T willing to learn because they do little damage, and just push buttons when we have a library worth of resources to go through for each class.

I'm in no way asking for perfection, but I am asking that people who queue into +50 content at least have the very basic understanding of the class they are playing - which seems to still be lacking in level 80 content.

The difference in this post is, you were talking to someone in your static and doing savage where you have to be optimal.
You weren't telling a random what to do in a random 4 man dungeon where being optimal isn't needed.

[Krotoan]

The difference is negligible, Christ who cares if it isn't the most "optimal" way of pulling. As long as the Tank can do his/her role (hold aggro, keep themselves alive, respect mechanics, not overpull to the point that it's a wipe, etc.) that's all that truly matters. Maybe the Tank in question just finds it more enjoyable to do it the other way? As long as he/she is not ruining the group, it's chill. It's okay to have a personal preference, but don't try to enforce it on someone else (especially the person who's in charge of pulling, if you want to pull like this when you're tanking, then go crazy), that is rather vain.

If someone responded to my (HYPOTHETICAL) suggestion with:
A. They like tanking that way.
B. They feel it's more efficient the way they're doing it
C.I need to mind my own business

I would reply the same way: "OK".
Sounds like you're making assumptions about the interaction here. Aside from it being a purely hypothetical example, it's perfectly acceptable to make suggestions you think are helpful. I am not enforcing anything in this, again hypothetical, situation. As I said in an earlier reply I understand my suggestions may either be: Ignored, refuted, accepted and adapted without acknowledgement, or actually acknowledged and immediately implemented. Any of these are of course acceptable.

For example, in every single Ex Primal I tank, I always Voke first then use my ranged attack. I love how much range Voke has so it's my preferred pulling skill, and I just used the ranged attack to establish proper aggro. Is this the most "optimal" way to pull? I don't know, and I really do not care. Why? Because it works for me & it doesn't hurt anybody. If someone tried to critique me because of that method, yes I would be annoyed because there's no meaningful reason to, you're just trying to nitpick and dictate my playstyle based on what you personally want. And that is a bit disrespectful.

Then you're getting agitated at someones opinion who likely meant no disrespect (unless language like "you're doing this the stupid way" was used, which I did not use) and only saw an opportunity to optimize.

Also, nice assumption, just because I find issue with the "suggestion" you listed, yes, I must have some kind of personal problem and be against all feedback /eyeroll.
Come on dude, stop it. You know next to nothing about who I am or what kind of player I am, so trying to tell me about myself as you're doing right now is almost laughable. If this is how you speak to people in game (I really hope it's not), then I understand why you would you'd find yourself in conflict.

I made no assumptions, I made an observation that if someone takes every single critique or suggestion with the (completely unstated) inflection of arrogance, disrespect, and above all a critique on you as a person, then the problem is not the suggestions, it's how they're taking them. Yes, I know absolutely nothing about you, except now I know that you seem to have a rather negative view of people who want to share their opinions about something you're doing. The suggestion I made was very neutral and non-antagonistic. If you're going to swing it into full negative "I don't care about what you think stop trying to play the game for me" mode I cannot help how you read things.

I want to tell you something: when you give out suggestions because of remedial things, you are essentially telling the other person "Hey, you don't know what you're doing. I know what's best, so do this." Even if your intent is pure, that is what it comes across as.

This is entirely up to the person receiving the information. Everyone reacts differently. The few times I've had a suggestion during gameplay I've generally gotten neutral to thankful replies.... and one very confusing non-sequitur.

Here is a rule of thumb I've followed for years that I've had very positive results from: As long as people are playing their roles (Tanks holding aggro and popping CDs, healers healing/shielding, DPSs doing decent damage) and respecting mechanics, and progressing through the instance, just leave them alone.

For the most part I say nothing during runs. I just get them done and as long as we aren't taking a full timer count to finish an instance I will remain silent. BUT if I see something that could be , of course in my opinion, EASIER or FASTER I will say something but I don't expect change. I simply have tried and that's enough to satisfy my own wants. You have taken my one hypothetical (I can provide other more obviously optimal hypotheticals if you'd like) and blown it into me forcing my views and standards on others, which it was not.

Like another great poster said, we are just fellow players, not authority figures.

And as one player to another, suggestions aren't personal attacks or authoritative commands, they are just suggestions. If I tell you that your way sucks then by all means go off, but if I suggest something might be better done a different way and you don't like/want the suggestion? How hard is it to say "nah".

[Kahnom]

Git Gud,B*tch.
Ahem..
Kidding
Um...if they perform bad regardless of their gears then it means they don’t use all of their kits properly.
So all we can do is give them quick advice.The rest is practice and player’s experience which up to them if they want to get better.

[AnimaAnimus]

The difference in this post is, you were talking to someone in your static and doing savage where you have to be optimal.
You weren't telling a random what to do in a random 4 man dungeon where being optimal isn't needed.

It's not about being optimal. But even if you are in a roulette, if you are literally not doing even the most basic things than that is an issue. Ice mages, rdm who ignore their phys rotation, smns who don't dot, bards who don't use songs, melee who don't aoe because they simply do not want to learn or just have the mentality of "its just a roulette/4 man" I think that is something that should be addressed, tactfully or course, and then if the issue persists or they cop an attitude, vote kick should be initiated. I wouldn't deal with a dnc like that in a random roulette either. Its just so unnecessary.

Just because we are doing content that you feel is "less than" does not mean that is how you should perform, just cause. I don't put 100% into roulettes either, but I use proper rotations and don't just do a sub par job because its "just" a 4 man.

I cant believe we are arguing about this. We are not asking for perfection, but at least have a basic grasp of what you are doing and put at least a little effort into it. Tapping a single button doesn't cut it, idk what content you are doing.

[TheForce]

I'm perfectly fine coming across as a bitch on the forums, less so in-game. So take your own reply and go away.

...really? I hate to say it, but that says a lot about your character if you're only content with being rude on the more impersonal platforms...that's not cool dude.

[TheForce]

Well, there's your problem.

The end.
/thread

[Konstanza]

I tactfully tell everyone we got this nicely with smiley faces and offer my assistance most people are pretty good about explaining they are new at a job or a dungeon at the beginning of the match so I tend to just be very forgiving now if someone doesn't explain theyre new I just ask what's killing us and let everyone else point fingers but usually I don't have any issues and ALMOST everyone I play with are equally forgiving when using df with randoms the real question though how do you punish randoms that don't do thier job.... a healer that doesn't heal, dps who this they can tank, and a tank that don't hold hate