*Spoilers* Questions about Shadowbringers

[Iscah]

Thinking about this...I have no idea when the Crystal Tower arc could take place in the story if you have started Shadowbringers, let alone Alexander and Omega. The exarch actually specifically mentions that the WoL and he hadn't met yet in the timeline when talking to Urianger in the Echo scene, but by all accounts the Garleans should have been using the Black Rose a little after your run-in with Elidizenos. Maybe I have the timing off in my head, but it feels like there wouldn't have been much of a chance for you to go side-questing with the war going on and all. You probably only left the front lines in the current timeline because of the Exarch poking you.

It definitely doesn't make sense if you stop to think about it, but they're not really trying to make it work - just fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. There is no real version of the story where you met the Exarch before you first met G'raha Tia. The CT storyline happened in post-ARR, regardless of when you did it, and anything else is just the story tying itself in knots so it doesn't have to say the player did something they haven't personally done yet.

This is the slightly odd (but consistent) way that the game handles optional storylines, especially if ongoing characters are involved.

The "canon version" is that those events happened at the point in the story indicated by the quest level and possibly the patch where the quest was introduced. In this case, the Lv50 CT quests take place post-ARR, with Nero fresh from his defeat at the Praetorium and 'out of a job', and I believe the recent destruction of the Isle of Val (as introduced in post-ARR MSQ) was also referenced. Cid is wearing his first outfit that he hasn't worn since early Heavensward.

However, if you skip these optional-but-canon quests, the game will not pretend that you have done them (though you should have). Any future references to their events will have variable dialogue, or be written around in other ways - for example, when Nero re-enters the MSQ storyline in post-Heavensward to propose using Omega, players may have previously interacted with him at the Crystal Tower, or this may be the first time they've seen him since the Praetorium. The story dodges the issue of whether we've met him or not because he doesn't speak to us directly, but introduces himself to the other characters who definitely don't know him. Cid has a variable remark either about not trusting him despite the events at the Crystal Tower (if you did it) or a more generic one about Nero having worked for Gaius (if you didn't do CT - in which case Cid hasn't talked to Nero since the Praetorium either).

Another example I like because it's tangled up in a lot of things is the Binding Coil. MSQ characters are involved, and ignoring it makes the timeline messy.

If you did it at the intended time in post-ARR, it ties in with things going on at that time. You meet Alisaie for the first time since the early events of the game, and Alphinaud is busy setting up the Crystal Braves. At the end of the story, Alisaie departs on a journey (referenced in her Tale from the Dragonsong War) and rejoins you at the end of it in post-Heavensward.

If you skipped it or only partially completed it at the time, when she joins you post-Heavensward in the quest Two Sides of a Coin there are multiple versions of dialogue from both Alphinaud and Alisaie referencing those events - but only as much of it as you have personally completed. If you didn't start the Coil quests at all, she says she hasn't met you since the early game.

And then if you eventually return to play the rest of Coil? It still happens at Lv50, with the characters being their ARR selves regardless of what their 'current self' is up to. If it's still undone after 4.4, Urianger is still standing around at the Waking Sands and participating in the quests despite actually being in a coma at the Rising Stones, because this is an earlier version of him from before that happened. And at the end of it, Alisaie is off on a journey she already got back from.

As I said, it gets messy.

TL;DR: optional events are treated as "not happened yet" until you do them, at which point they had always happened at the designated time in the story where they were written to take place - not at the time when you personally played the quest.

Shadowbringers was written with the assumption that CT happened at its proper time, but is forced to allow for the fact that some players haven't done it - but those variations seem to be added as an afterthought, and aren't supposed to be "equally canon" with the proper sequence of events.

[EdwinLi]

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Which is why I still think the timeline aspect is the Block Timeline.

In the previous Block of the timeline, it is most likely that CT happened in the intended timeline of 2.X but this new Block created due to the time travel to continue the Timeline with different events is designed to have CT event happen based on when the player choose as part of a ripple effect.

It is like water in a river thus even if a person change the flow of the river it is still the same river. Water may not flow the same way but it is still the same water that flows through the river.

Of course now we can only ask where will this river go to with this change because a part of me still suspect the Calamity has not been avoided but just created events that may lead to something of equal or far worse *cough* a Super God Powered Zenos that consumed both Hydaelyn and Zodiark that goes full Kefka on the World just for that Ultimate battle against WoL *cough*

[EdwinLi]

The way I see it there are two possible outcomes being....

1) Building Block timeline - the previous timeline was actually the past and when G'raha Tia went back in time he stopped the old timeline from existing and the new timeline created a new Block to continue the timeline. Think of it like this....



Block A to B is the old timeline and Block C to E is the new timeline. Everything is part of the Block line as one timeline thus it was always intended in the timeline for events of the Black Rose ( along with everything that lead to the time travel) to happen so in a future part of the timeline the events that started Shadowbringer will happen. Thus creating a new Block that still followed majority of the same events up until a specific moments where the new block will cause different events like overriding Saved Data using a New Game+ Data that still count your play time since you began a New game even though New Game+ reset your progress with carried over stuff.


2) Time Remnent timeline - The new timeline is created and completely replaced the old timeline but Old G'raha Tia exists because his influence in the New Timeline is far too vital that it cannot erase him without erasing the New Timeline as well thus he remains in the New Timeline as a Remnent of the Old Timeline due to being a major influence in creating the new timeline.

[Iscah]

I think the issue is that you're trying to define the variable text from quest completion as an in-universe manipulation of time, where I don't see any reason to view it as anything more than an out-of-universe gameplay contrivance. It allows for an established sequence of events and character growth without forcing the players to complete every quest along the way, and without taking the route of telling the player "remember when X happened" if they haven't done X.

[EdwinLi]

I think the issue is that you're trying to define the variable text from quest completion as an in-universe manipulation of time, where I don't see any reason to view it as anything more than an out-of-universe gameplay contrivance. It allows for an established sequence of events and character growth without forcing the players to complete every quest along the way, and without taking the route of telling the player "remember when X happened" if they haven't done X.

Because the main post is asking about TIMELINE and which one is the MSQ possibly using to explain if the Old timeline still exists or not either as a separate timeline, part of a intended event in a single timeline, or erased from existance to be replaced with this new timeline. Thus I answered the post within how Timeline works with the MSQ by taking in all possible mixing of events both Main and Optional as a Multiple Timeline normally does by taking into account all variations of events and difference in WoL appearance are in fact different Timelines.

Timeline topic in storyline is a very convoluted subject because it will include all possible outcomes and constant narrowing down on which possible Timeline Theory they maybe using.

As I said before, in story perspective we are either in a Block Timeline or a Time Remnant Timeline.

[Ilenya]

I'm just imagining this moment of calling up the Garleans and going "Hey, uh, there's this weird tower thing we need to look inside, can you hold off for a bit?" "Hey, there's this...Massive Primal I've been ignoring, can I go take care of it?"

[Iscah]

I'm just imagining this moment of calling up the Garleans and going "Hey, uh, there's this weird tower thing we need to look inside, can you hold off for a bit?" "Hey, there's this...Massive Primal I've been ignoring, can I go take care of it?"

Now I'm picturing the Scions trying to stall for time while we go to investigate the tower... and have to deal with bratty young G'raha sending us on his merry chase for aethersand, blissfully unaware of how desperate our situation is.

[Ilenya]

Now I'm picturing the Scions trying to stall for time while we go to investigate the tower... and have to deal with bratty young G'raha sending us on his merry chase for aethersand, blissfully unaware of how desperate our situation is.

I suppose, thinking about it, CT is the only one that WoL is required to have done to fit OMG's story. There could have been other Adventurers who happened to get involved with Alexander/Omega, since both are...Basically required for the story to make sense, but CT's just always going to be a catching point.

[Iscah]

I suppose, thinking about it, CT is the only one that WoL is required to have done to fit OMG's story. There could have been other Adventurers who happened to get involved with Alexander/Omega, since both are...Basically required for the story to make sense, but CT's just always going to be a catching point.

Technically yes, for now at least - although from memory I think G'raha tells Urianger that the concepts of time travel were developed out of certain events that happened during the WoL's adventures, implying that we historically did them.

But again, canonically we're supposed to have done the quests as they become available to us, and the time travel plot has opted to treat them as done rather than try to convolutedly follow the maybe-or-maybe-not approach of the "present day" MSQ.

Also, Omega is an "only the WoL could do this" due to Midgardsormr's involvement, and Dayan's expository talk at the wrap-up of the Alexander story seems to rely on our plot significance.

[Ilenya]

Technically yes, for now at least...

Just as a note, I'm not being entirely serious with my train of thoughts, just trying to figure out how it could possibly have happened. Just lots of random train of thoughts.