Thread: AST changes for 5.1+ feedback

Originally Posted by Sylvain

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

AST is already mp inefficient and nocturnal makes the problem worse. When mitigation needs to be done AST doesn't have much outside of it's expensive shield heals and a couple of very lengthy CDs meanwhile SCH has several tools outside of succor that can help mitigate, some like sacred soil being on a very short cool down. SCH also has the tools to recover MP when it does need to use its big shield heals while AST has nothing outside of lucid dreaming. If I'm struggling with MP at the tail end of E4s as a SCH, I'd honestly hate to see how a shield AST would get by.

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

AST is already mp inefficient and nocturnal makes the problem worse. When mitigation needs to be done AST doesn't have much outside of it's expensive shield heals and a couple of very lengthy CDs meanwhile SCH has several tools outside of succor that can help mitigate, some like sacred soil being on a very short cool down. SCH also has the tools to recover MP when it does need to use its big shield heals while AST has nothing outside of lucid dreaming. If I'm struggling with MP at the tail end of E4s as a SCH, I'd honestly hate to see how a shield AST would get by.

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

Im always confused with the english names x)
Anyway, well yeah AST is indeed inefficient mp wise but that could honestly easily be solved.
Either by nerfing mp cast or adding new Form of mp regen (like when using a card for instance)

as we both said, SCH has SS and AST only has CU.
Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

Originally Posted by Side-Eye

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

I agree with you that yes, that's optimal use of CU.

But the fact that it isn't an instant ability (like we use it), and instead suggests that channeling is possible for upwards of 10 seconds, and doesn't explicitly say on the tooltip that the hot and mitigation snapshot as a buff regardless of channeling time invested, this is bad design.

Especially since, if you have one or two players just outside your CU range, an AST might feel obligated to hold it for a GCD, long enough for stragglers to get inside. Often I can see the DPS near me but I overestimated my range to the tanks and I can't immediately see whether I hit them, so I check their buffs before I move. Often, missed players will try to jump inside of it, which only matters if I'm still channeling it.

So there are a lot of less-optimal reasons an AST might "hold" and channel for a GCD or two. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, but I can see why it happens. And because we don't get to "see" the range of it, we can't place ourselves as well as the true ground effect abilities. The other ground effects have the added bonus of being able to enter them and exit them until the effect is over, while CU snapshots based on that invisible 5 yalm radius around you.

It's broken for a lot of reasons, and its channeled nature is part of it. It's not "necessary" to channel. Unless you or someone else make a mistake, and then you pay for it by doing nothing inside a pretty ball of light.

Originally Posted by tesni_g

I agree with you that yes, that's optimal use of CU.

But the fact that it isn't an instant ability (like we use it), and instead suggests that channeling is possible for upwards of 10 seconds, and doesn't explicitly say on the tooltip that the hot and mitigation snapshot as a buff regardless of channeling time invested, this is bad design.

Especially since, if you have one or two players just outside your CU range, an AST might feel obligated to hold it for a GCD, long enough for stragglers to get inside. Often I can see the DPS near me but I overestimated my range to the tanks and I can't immediately see whether I hit them, so I check their buffs before I move. Often, missed players will try to jump inside of it, which only matters if I'm still channeling it.

So there are a lot of less-optimal reasons an AST might "hold" and channel for a GCD or two. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, but I can see why it happens. And because we don't get to "see" the range of it, we can't place ourselves as well as the true ground effect abilities. The other ground effects have the added bonus of being able to enter them and exit them until the effect is over, while CU snapshots based on that invisible 5 yalm radius around you.

It's broken for a lot of reasons, and its channeled nature is part of it. It's not "necessary" to channel. Unless you or someone else make a mistake, and then you pay for it by doing nothing inside a pretty ball of light.

I don't agree that it's bad design.

The tooltip describes what the ability does, it does not tell you the best way to use it: "Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster, granting 10% damage reduction and applying a Regen effect to any party members who enter.". That's completely correct.
The details on how to use the ability effectively is what guides and playing experience are for. You can see with your own eyes that the regen/mitigation effect stays after the channel is cancelled. If you don't notice this, you're not at a point where the difference between channeling and cancelling matters.

Everyone loved CU in Stormblood. Now it's "broken". Yet nothing changed, but the potency. I think it's fine, except that there's no reason why it shouldn't be a little higher potency.

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I don't agree that it's bad design.

The tooltip describes what the ability does, it does not tell you the best way to use it: "Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster, granting 10% damage reduction and applying a Regen effect to any party members who enter.". That's completely correct.
The details on how to use the ability effectively is what guides and playing experience are for. You can see with your own eyes that the regen/mitigation effect stays after the channel is cancelled. If you don't notice this, you're not at a point where the difference between channeling and cancelling matters.

Everyone loved CU in Stormblood. Now it's "broken". Yet nothing changed, but the potency. I think it's fine, except that there's no reason why it shouldn't be a little higher potency.

Absolutely, should have a much higher potency or a much quicker recast. Or both.

The tooltip doesn't describe how long the mitigation effect stays active. There is no mention of the damage reduction lingering past the AST's channeling animation. Maybe it's a stupid thing to be arguing about but our tooltips suck, our abilities are clunky, our potencies are weak.

CU is an unforgiving and finicky ability, and that might not be such a big deal were it not that every single AST ability is unforgiving, finicky, and/or high maintenance. The opener is unforgiving. Play is finicky. Horoscope is high maintenance. If CU was the only ability that had core execution problems, I wouldn't be complaining. Probably.

I love Earthly Star, too, but every single thing that AST does requires two buttons or two buttons and a direct cast. In this regard, they had an opportunity to make CU effortless, in stark contrast to the OGCD machine that is Horoscope, Cards, and Star. But instead, CU has all the drawbacks of a ground effect without the benefit of being a ground effect.

If the cooldown on CU was reduced, I would probably enjoy it more, because then it's less "a giant long cooldown wasted" and more "I'll position better next time" or "I can use it on the tank now and still have it up again for the raidwide later." That would be amazing. A 90 second cooldown should be powerful and straightforward to use, so CU should be either buffed into the appropriate power level for 90 second recast and have some of its disadvantages minimized/reworked, or have it brought down to a 60 second cooldown to join the ranks of Horoscope and Celestial Opposition.