Just started Shadowbringer but I have a small question (spoiler)

[Enkidoh]

I'm pretty sure that I remember the exarch stating pretty plainly that the reason we came here with our mortal bodies, all of our equipment, and can travel back and forth at will using aether trails from aetherites is because we were the specific and intended target of his teleportation spell, thus the spell was able to work correctly and in its entirety.

The reason the scions only got their souls teleported, and cannot travel back freely, is because they were not the target of the summon spell, they were accidental targets of a spell that was intended for you, and as such they have these rather unfortunate side-effects.

It doesn't have anything to do with him "practicing" or "mastering" the spell.. He just finally got ahold of his intended target, and so the spell was able to work fully as intended.

Although we were indeed the intended sole target of the Call spell, and that the Archons's souls being called instead were just unlucky accidents, the Crystal Exarch actually states that the spell was actually "difficult to master" and that Archons were drawn there accidentally by his "fumbling hand", which all sounds to me like it took him ages to master the 'art' of calling the player:

Crystal Exarch: "My intention had been to summon only you, but the art of reaching across worlds has proven exceedingly difficult to master. Thus it was that my fumbling hand closed upon those to whom your fate is most closely bound as well."
Crystal Exarch: "As they were not the object of my summons... their transferance was... incomplete. Though they may appear to possess corporeal bodies, they are, in truth, merely spirits one can see and touch."
Crystal Exarch: "Consequently, while you yourself will be able to pass between worlds with relative freedom, they will not. Much as it grieves me... they are stranded here, unable to return.

It's why the Call spell finally worked for us, through trial and error he finally worked out how to do it properly, and bring us physically to the First.... albiet at the cost of the Archons now being stuck in the First as corporeal spirits....

Either way, the Call did not seize the souls of the Archons one by one as a means of getting to us as well, they were accidental caused by the Exarch still learning how to do it (he was basically winging the whole thing, experimenting and finding his way with things), and it paid off eventually by succeeding in drawing us to him, and ultimately, in body as well as soul, to the First proper.

[Iscah]

This particular point can actually be different depending on optional small talk, actually (or is addressed entirely, depending on your outlook on such things).

Should you return to the Source after meeting Feo Ul, Tataru's dialogue does change to indicate she's met Feo Ul and that you should go back to the First and let her worry about the Source. The quest in question, "Travelers of Norvrandt" actually changes a multitude of small talks! The Scions have kept many of their allies in the loop regarding the missing Scions, it seems.

Tataru, Matoya, Lambertient and Arenvald all change after this; Lamberteint doesn't quite believe the Scions are in another world, Arenvald worries for Alphinaud, and Matoya asks us to tell Shtola to come visit when she returns.(I do wonder why they've been updating Lambertient since 4.4...) Of those four people, three of them have the same small talk after completing 5.0's MSQ—Tataru's dialogue, however changes. For clarity's sake, here are Tataru's 3 states:




Admittedly, I learned this after I'd personally completed Shadowbringers by way of poking around GarlandTools and the like—but I do have a vague memory of checking in on the Rising Stones before Amaurot to see what, if any, diaogue changed and was amused/happy to see at least Tataru's did while the other Scions in the Stones didn't.

Another somewhat fun fact, is that the only other time dialogue on the Source changes is after you slay your first Lightwarden, Temulun (Cirina's grandmother) changes her small talk to the following:

Everyone else on the Source, other than those I've mentioned here, just seem to have a flag for whether or not you've completed relevant quests (the lv80 job quests) or Shadowbringers (the more mundane Scions). The citizens of the First seem to have a multitude of states, typically dealing with whether you've restored night to the area they reside in, if the Light's come back, and if it's Lakeland or the Crystarium there's even more nuance... it's honestly surprising and I'm ashamed to say I missed most of the interim steps!

Garland Tools has failed me for picking up NPCs' changing dialogue at the various stages of the story. Normally it would all come up in the talk dialogue tab for the triggering quest, but a lot of their script seems to be missing. (eg. Lyna has absolutely no non-quest dialogue linked to her, even though she's standing at her guard post throughout the game and can be talked to.) The final quest should have loads of new dialogue, but only lists a few people back on the Source. Some of the text that should turn up there can be found on the individual NPCs and just hasn't linked to the quest script, other things are just nowhere to be found.


On being able to go back and get updated conversations from people on the Source during the game, I'd still take their comments as part of the "adapting the concept from linear story to interactive RPG" process where the story itself wouldn't send you back to the Source at all, but because you can ignore the plot intentions and go back there, the character do have dialogue to acknowledge that. I'd see it as similar to how the game adapts dialogue according to whether you've completed relevant optional quests or not. (eg. your completion-or-partial-progress of the Binding Coil at Lv50 can result in four different versions of dialogue from Alphinaud and Alisaie at Lv60 reflecting that progress, even though "canonically" you should have completed it at that point and the other three versions of the scene shouldn't really exist.)

The script twists in all sorts of ways to accomodate players who haven't done everything they were supposed to have done at this point. You weren't supposed to leave the First and drop in on Tataru, but you did, so she'll have to react to you. Just like you probably weren't supposed to ditch your companions in Dravania or Yanxia to go visit the Gold Saucer and play mini-games, but the game isn't going to stop you.


Definitely interesting that Lamberteint is getting dialogue updates though. I was just saying to someone the other day that the Garuda leadup quests are worse than Titan because at least the Company of Heroes have ongoing use as supporting characters... So. Could see his knowledge being useful in this situation - I just hope they make him more likeable than he was in ARR if we're going to have to be dealing with him.

Although we were indeed the intended sole target of the Call spell, and that the Archons's souls being called instead were just unlucky accidents, the Crystal Exarch actually states that the spell was actually "difficult to master" and that Archons were drawn there accidentally by his "fumbling hand", which all sounds to me like it took him ages to master the 'art' of calling the player:

Different interpretations, then - I read that as "I reached across but my aim was off, so I picked up the wrong person". If it's just a matter of reciting the words and aetherially 'reaching out', then it's the reaching and aiming that he has to work on.

That line you quoted is also what indicates that the spell has to be set for a specific target, and getting the wrong person is at least part of why it didn't work as intended.

[MiniTofu]

Wow, thanks for the details. Pretty in depth here to learn.

[Iscah]

Wow, thanks for the details. Pretty in depth here to learn.

We'll go in deep here pretty quickly. There's a lot of plot details to keep track of if you want to know everything!

[YianKutku]

Definitely interesting that Lamberteint is getting dialogue updates though. I was just saying to someone the other day that the Garuda leadup quests are worse than Titan because at least the Company of Heroes have ongoing use as supporting characters... So. Could see his knowledge being useful in this situation - I just hope they make him more likeable than he was in ARR if we're going to have to be dealing with him.

Guh. I've been consistently checking in on the Scions and various aetherically knowledgeable NPCs (Severian, E-Sumi-Yan, Professor Erik) to see if they had updated dialogue during Shadowbringers (and the 4.x patches), but I completely forgot about Lamberteint.

I should make a note to check in on him in the 5.x patches from now on.

(I still don't know where Lyse and Hien are, in terms of being clickable to check their dialogue.)

[Quor]

Guh. I've been consistently checking in on the Scions and various aetherically knowledgeable NPCs (Severian, E-Sumi-Yan, Professor Erik) to see if they had updated dialogue during Shadowbringers (and the 4.x patches), but I completely forgot about Lamberteint.

I should make a note to check in on him in the 5.x patches from now on.

(I still don't know where Lyse and Hien are, in terms of being clickable to check their dialogue.)

For Lyse and Hien I think they're "at the front" so to speak, so likely not accessible to us at the moment. Remember, the last thing that happened prior to ShB that involved them was the holding action against Elidizenos with Yugiri and a few other alliance soldiers, wherein basically everyone there was severely injured.

[Iscah]

I found the particular dialogue I was thinking of that indicates we haven't been back to the Source during the game:

When you return to the Rising Stones at the end:

TATARU
But─ But─ But─!
Forename!? Is it really you!?
B-B-But how? When!? We didn't think you'd be back for ages!

Q5
What will you say?

A5
Time moves in mysterious ways.
Would you rather I went again?

TATARU
Right! So it does! The reports you had delivered by that excitable little pixie said as much!
Oh, don't be daft! I just can't believe you're actually back!
We heard the good news from your pixie friend, but nothing compares to seeing you in the flesh!

While it could be interpreted as her not expecting to see you so soon after the last time you dropped in to see her, overall it sounds like we've been keeping her up-to-date via Feo but haven't personally come back.

[Enkidoh]

Tataru may have just spoken in general terms, and just because she may not have seen us personally for a while, does not necessarily mean we haven't been back to the Source at all (whose to say we haven't quickly jumped back to sort out something personal that did not concern the Scions and so we didn't see her?). As I mentioned earlier the Crystal Exarch repeatedly informs the WoL from almost the moment they first arrive in the Crystarium that they can travel between the worlds at will, to the point that he's afraid they will up and abandon their fight against the Light and go back to the Source and pretty much begs them stay there in the First and continue fighting, based on dialogue he mentioned in the cutscene just after the player kills Philia in Holminster Switch and banished the Everlasting Light from Lakeland:

Crystal Exarch: "But... be that it as it may... I concede it was wrong of me to summon you to this fight against your will."
Crystal Exarch: "I swear on my life, I will one day atone for that deed. But for the present..."
Crystal Exarch: "I beg you stay and see this fight to it's conclusion. Cast down the Wardens, and restore Darkness to the First!"

Sure he doesn't outright say "Please dont go home to the Source!", but, when his previous constant references to being able to travel freely between the Source and the First are taken into account also, then it's pretty clear he's afraid the WoL is going to abandon him and the First and he is desperate to have them stay, that they can travel freely between the First and the Source, no matter what Tataru may say.

Of course the story just assumes we just stay in the First to the end, but it also does make allowances that we can and even may have even indeed have travelled back home also to the Source and returned to the First during that time, despite Tataru's contradictory statements. And as far as my character's personal headcanon goes, she indeed has... repeatedly (lets just say the Everlasting Light gave her headaches and she had to keep going home to recover).

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

snip

The reason why is explained later, but the gist of it is that it's necessary for you to be here unless you want to lose to Garlemald.

The others had their souls sucked out of their bodies and need to be rejoined properly to leave, while the Warrior of Light was grabbed body and all. Therefore, you can travel between the two worlds with greater ease.