Diversifying Tanks

[Shurrikhan]

I see comments like this and it makes me think: would this game be more interesting if dps wasn't a role? Just Tanks and Healers? Maybe you could have a "Support" role, which can have some buffs/debuffs? Or is that just silly?

To me, it begs less the question of "What if there were no DPS" than "What if DPS could actually do more than just stand in the right places while gradually depleting the boss's HP?" That in turn begs the question, "What if there was more to the game than just standing in the right places, hitting buttons when their cues come up, and depleting the boss's HP?"

Similarly, I've always been under the impression that a great many controversies could have been spared and opportunities taken if the Healer role had just been named Support to begin with (with still many degrees of supportiveness varying across all roles atop that).

[MaraD_]

Something people are misunderstanding here, is that some people want "This tank shouldnt be good at the fight, and not allowed to come". (Ive met those kinds of crazy)
BUT what some of us are trying to say, is what about giving each tank 1 unique bonus, that none of the other tanks bring, PLUS making each fight benefit from that bonus. (These arent requirements. all tanks meet the requirements)

PLD had cover in HW, but it just wasnt useful enough for cheesing mechanics. But in SB cover allowed for some really useful cheesing.
PLD has had its antipushback, but it wasnt a feature that actually helpped with uptime until SB.

DRK offered the ability to lower a bosses INT (In HW) but over all, wasnt as good as 2 WARs. (You were better off with 2 WARs for both DPS and mitigation) DRK was only liked, because it was closer to WAR than PLD was. It's "bonus" was never actually a real bonus.

PLDs bonuses never actually helped. (excluding semi helping in A11S, but a WAR still did it better)

So if you instead make a boss truly benefit from each of the tanks specialties, then it doesnt matter which tank you leave out, you're still missing out on a rather useful bonus.
(Its still technically possible to quantify which bonus is more useful, based on maximum DPS possibilities, but most ppl will argue up and down which is the best strat, when its that much harder to quantify in DPS)

This is closer to what people are talking about, when they want diversity.
The other is just something like aesthetic changes, that barely matter. Such as the difference between a temp HP shield like TBN, vs max HP increase with a heal, like Thrill of Battle. They essentially equate the same thing. (But to be fair, Thrill of Battle and TBN can be pushed further, with other mechanics, to differentiate them further. Such as abilities being based on max HP, which dont help a DRK with TBN. But TBN doesnt have to be based on ur max HP, but another resource, which can be played with. There's ways to make these skills do more, and interact with other skills. (Thrill should have gone to DRK, and TBN should have gone to WAR, based on invulns. But imo, the invulns should have swapped, based on some other mechanics you could have done.)

DRK drops to 1 HP in walking dead. If DRK had WARs toolkit...
Bloodbath of HW heals up some of the HP. Tank stance adds how much you're healed for, with the ability to remove dmg penalty (prior to SB), equilibrium, inner beast/steel for aoe healing, and thrill acts as a heal.
These skills work better with LD than they do with WAR.
WARs drops to 1 HP like DRK, but doesnt need healed to max. WAR doesnt actually need healed at all. If WAR had TBN, it would be enough to survive auto attacks for awhile on a boss, even at 1hp. Temp HP shields also work with GNB, when it drops to 1hp, it could still have its hp shields, as its invuln doesnt effect them.
But the tank that gets TBN is DRK...
GNB sacrifices its HP for a gain... sounds very DRKish to me... and yet, because of server ticks, GNB got a regen, instead of a shield for its invuln.

SE doesnt exsactly care about making tanks. (or healers) they are just simplified DPS, and thats all they will remain to SE.

[Mahrze]

At this point. What I think is that the "role skills" should all be tanking related. I know its an unpopular opinion but none of the abilities involving mitigation are in any way unique outside of the 15-25s CD ones.

Things like Ramp, Sentinel, HG, etc just all be generic mitigation CDs and invulns.

And try to work on making the other stuff stand out more. Sadly everything but DRK as an identity at this point (and I appreciate the changes with DRK), I am unsure if down the line DRK won't just be a shadow clone of WAR.

[waterboytkd]

Incoming big post. This would be a pretty major rework for WAR and DRK, with only minor changes to some defensives for PLD and GNB.

Paladin
Paladin Offense
- unchanged
Paladin Defense (all about % based damage reduction)
- Divine Veil becomes 10-15% damage reduction for 5-10 seconds, rather than a shield.
- Passage to Arms: the cone buff changes to “allies in the cone gain your block rate and block strength”, which, at 80, would be 100% rate with 20% (right?) strength. This is a buff for your teammates, though, so maybe give it a 50 Oath Gauge cost. If that’s too steep, maybe a 50 oath cost also reduces the recast to 60s?
- Cover: remove the Oath Gauge cost. This ability is so niche as is.

Warrior
Warrior Offense (now it uses Beast Gauge to keep up its buffs; the big hits have changed Combo Finishers)
- Change Beast Gauge functionality to: whenever you would have 100 or more Beast Gauge, reduced your Beast Gauge by 100, and refresh the duration of Storm’s Path, Storm’s Eye, and Thrill of Battle.
- Storm’s Path no longer restores hp or builds Beast Gauge. It’s now an attack with 100 potency, combo action: Maim or Mythril Tempest, combo potency: 350, combo bonus: gives a 10% haste buff for 30s.
- Storm’s Eye no longer builds Beast Gauge. It’s now an attack with 100 potency, combo action: Maim or Mythril Tempest, combo potency: 350, combo bonus: increases damage dealt by 10% for 30s.
- Thrill of Battle changed to “Increase your max hp by 5%, and restore the amount increased. Increase hp recovery via healing actions on self by 5%. 30s duration. 30s recast.
- Various other Weaponskill potencies are reduced to balance the haste buff from Storm’s Path. Heavy Swing 180, Maim 270, Overpower 120, Mythril Tempest combo 180.
- Gain Inner Beast at level 30 now. Inner Beast no longer costs Beast Gauge, has 100 potency, combo action: Maim, combo potency: 350, combo bonus: increases Beast Gauge by 30, combo bonus: restores own hp, cure potency: 250.
- The Beast Within only affects Maim now. Maim gains combo bonus: increases Beast Gauge by 20.
- Mythril Tempest no longer extends the duration of Storm’s Eye.
- Steel Cyclone no longer costs Beast Gauge, has 100 potency, combo action: Mythril Tempest, combo potency: 220, combo bonus: increases Beast Gauge by 30, combo bonus: restores own hp, cure potency: 250.
- Infuriate’s effect changes to “Execute up to 1 Weaponskill combo without meeting combo prerequisites.” The other aspects of Infuriate (including Nascent Chaos) remain unchanged.
- Inner Beast Mastery changed to “Using Inner Beast allows the immediate use of Fell Cleave.”
- Fell Cleave changes to an oGCD attack with 150-200 potency, and a 1s recast timer.
- Steel Cyclone Mastery changed to “Using Steel Cyclone allows the immediate use of Decimate.”
- Decimate changes to an oGCD attack to all nearby enemies with 50 potency, and a 1s recast timer.
- Onslaught loses its Beast Gauge cost, has its potency increased to 200, and its recast timer increased to 30s.
- Enhance Onslaught is gained at 78, granting a second charge of Onslaught.
- Upheaval loses its Beast Gauge cost.
- Inner Release’s first effect changes to “Allows the execution of Weaponskill combos without meeting combo prerequisites and nullifies Bind, Stun, Sleep, Heavy, and most knockback and draw-in effects.”
- Nascent Chaos now upgrades Inner Beast to Inner Chaos, and Steel Cyclone to Chaos Cyclone. Inner Chaos and Chaos Cyclone would not proc Fell Cleave or Decimate, respectively.
Warrior Defense (now all about using dumb amounts of hp + some self heals; still has some small % based damage reduction)
- Vengeance: Reduces incoming damage by 15%, and restore hp equal to the amount reduced.
- Holmgang: increase Thrill of Battle’s bonuses to 100%, and restores the amount increased, additional effect: Whenever you are dealt damage, restore hp to self equal to the damage dealt.
- Raw Intuition: Increases Thrill of Battle’s bonuses to 25%, and restores the amount increased.
- Shake It Off: Grants Shake It Off to self and nearby party members. Shake It Off effect: whenever you take damage, restore hp equal to 10% of the damage dealt, 10s duration, 90s recast timer. Dispels Vengeance, increasing the amount restored by 5%.
- Nascent Flash can be cast without an ally targeted, but only grants yourself Nascent Flash in that case. Similar in functionality to Dragoon’s Dragon Sight in how it grants Right Eye and Left Eye.

Dark Knight
Dark Knight Offense (dump your resources, don’t overcap)
- Big goal here is to alleviate craziness of opener, while making the later half of each minute a bit more interesting. This is accomplished by moving some of the “generic” oGCD attacks to the GCD, while moving Blood Gauge attacks to the oGCD. The mechanics for restoring MP and increasing Blood Gauge were set to keep DRK at about the same number of Bloodspillers and Edges per minute.
- Swap when Souleater and Carve and Spit are obtained (for thematic reasons).
- Carve and Spit is an attack with 100 potency, combo action: syphon strike, combo potency: 400, combo bonus: grants a barrier to self that absorbs damage equal to 5% of your max hp, combo bonus: increases Blood Gauge by 10.
- Add new ability at level 30, The Black Night. It is functionally identical to The Blackest Night, except the shield is only equal to 10% of your max hp. At level 70, this is upgraded to The Blackest Night.
- Dark Arts now also affects the MP cost of Abyssal Drain and Souleater (more on that below)
- Change Blood Weapon to a stance ability (not exclusive from Grit) that halts passive MP generation, but each Weaponskill and Spell that damages an enemy restores MP (300 MP). After level 66, each Weaponskill and Spell also increases the Blood Gauge by 5.
- Change Abyssal Drain to a Spell on the GCD with a 3000 MP cost. It’s an attack with potency 200 to target and all nearby enemies, Dark Arts potency: 400, additional effect: restore own hp equal to the total amount of damage dealt. Does not interrupt combos.
- Change Souleater to a Weaponskill on the GCD with a 3000 MP cost. It ‘s an attack with 300 potency, Dark Arts potency: 600, additional effect: restore own hp equal to twice the damage dealt. Does not interrupt combos.
- Change Quietus to an oGCD attack with 60 potency to all nearby enemies, 2s recast timer, still costs 50 Blood Gauge.
- Change Bloodspiller to an oGCD attack with 300 potency, 2s recast timer, still costs 50 Blood Gauge.
- Delirium has a new effect: increases to your Blood Gauge are doubled.
Dark Knight Defense (all about Shields, plus the % based damage reduction for magic attacks)
- Add new ability at level 30, The Black Night. It is functionally identical to The Blackest Night, except the shield is only equal to 10% of your max hp. At level 70, this is upgraded to The Blackest Night.
- Shadow Wall: gain a shield equal to 40% of your max hp. Duration 10s.
- Living Dead: Living Dead side remains unchanged. Walking Dead changes to: when Living Dead expires (either by duration or being reduced to 0 hp) gain a shield equal to the amount of hp lost during Living Dead. Shields last 10s.

Gunbreaker
Gunbreaker Offense
- Unchanged
Gunbreaker Defense (I’ll be honest, I don’t really get their theme. It seems like a hodgepodge of the other three--small % based, small shields, some healing over time?)
- To differentiate Nebula from Sentinel, change it to “reduces incoming damage by 15%, additional effect: grants a healing over time effect to self, cure potency: 300, duration 12s.” The HoT effect should be about 20% of your max hp.
- So a Bolide is a brilliant meteor, often one that explodes in a fireball. This makes the “I lose all my hp” part of the ability thematically on point, I guess. But is a 1 minute shorter cooldown worth losing all your hp? Maybe add a healing over time effect to it (600 potency, 15 seconds--this should be about 50% of your max hp).
- To differentiate Heart of Light from Dark Missionary, change Heart of Light to “creates a barrier around self and nearby party members that absorbs damage equal to 10% of max hp. Dispels Brutal Shell, increasing the amount absorbed by 5%.

[DRKoftheAzure]

@waterboytkd; You aren't solving the 'WAR and DRK is spamming 1-2-3 all throughout the fight' problem, which a lot of people are complaining about(refer to page 1 of this thread post #5 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rsifying-Tanks as I went in-depth as to how to make them more interesting and maybe fun).

However I will agree on DRK having HP based barriers as that is more anti-magic than Dark Mind ever could be(again refer to page 1 of this thread post #4 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rsifying-Tanks)...

(side tangent; GNB is for 'Gunbreaker' not 'Gunblade')

[smol_cofe]

give DRK debuff skills, increase WAR burst. atm those are the only tanks that feel very similar to eachother to me, though I get that there is alot of similarity with gauges and the same functioning cooldowns. DRK feels like the debuff tank just off of skill name and the way the job quests play out; soul sucking, abyssl draining, enemies being scared and demoralized and so on. WAR the same way seems to be all about their uncontrollable explosive behavior but their damage is the lowest. arguing that it's balanced how it is now with marginal difference is fine, but then there won't be any gameplay difference with only that to work with unless the job is completely changed, or is that not true? defensively WAR is not weak at all so that's not what needs work.

[waterboytkd]

@waterboytkd; You aren't solving the 'WAR and DRK is spamming 1-2-3 all throughout the fight' problem, which a lot of people are complaining about(refer to page 1 of this thread post #5 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rsifying-Tanks as I went in-depth as to how to make them more interesting and maybe fun).

However I will agree on DRK having HP based barriers as that is more anti-magic than Dark Mind ever could be(again refer to page 1 of this thread post #4 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rsifying-Tanks)...

(side tangent; GNB is for 'Gunbreaker' not 'Gunblade')

RIP on Gunblade. I always say that instead of Gunbreaker...I know it's the latter, but I always call it the former for some reason.

So I was not trying to give them multiple full combos like the DPS classes. I liked your suggestion from page 1, but it gave both classes a lot of abilities to have to put on hot bars.

So I was trying to get them "evened out" without going too big on ability bloat. I was also trying to preserve what identity they currently have--WAR being mostly GCD based with very few oGCDs; DRK having the simplest GCD rotation, but a much stronger focus on its oGCDs.

By "evened out", at least for DRK, what I mean is: get DRK to spread out its oGCD use a bit, so the opener isn't so insane (and the start of each subsequent minute) and the later half of each minute is a bit busier. I tried to accomplish that by moving the Blood GCDs to the oGCD (which means you can't start using them until a few GCDs in), and move the 'use on cd' oGCD (CaS, AD) to the GCD, but set them up as utility skills rather than part of the rotations. I was also trying to create a decision point for those abilities with Dark Arts that wasn't going to be one ability always being the best to use. It still kind of is, though: you only use CaS (well, Souleater as I had them swap for thematic/fluff reasons) or AD if you need to self heal, even with DA up. In that way, they're a bit like Clemency.

So I could see working CaS and AD into the single target or AoE rotations, respectively, to liven up the GCDs a bit. Ie, leave Souleater as it currently is (though maybe change the heal to a 5% shield), then make CaS a new combo finisher after Syphon Strike that does something (puts a DoT up, buffs Souleater in a certain way, etc). So you would go 1-2-CaS or 1-2-Soul. Or even make it a 4-hit combo, making DRK unique among the tanks for having the longest base combo.

For AD, you could do something similar, so you go either Unleash-AD or Unleash-Stalwart Soul, or like you suggested, make it a 1-2-3 kind of thing.

For WAR, it was focused more on having various finishers for combos to get buffs up, then it keeps doing its Inner Beast combo to keep the buffs up. 1 new oGCD for both single target and AoE (while also extending the AoE combo by 1 move). Though, with the way I suggested it, both Storm's Path and Eye turn into "fire and forget" abilities that you use at the start of a fight, then never really go back to.

[DRKoftheAzure]

RIP on Gunblade. I always say that instead of Gunbreaker...I know it's the latter, but I always call it the former for some reason.

Understandable.

So I was not trying to give them multiple full combos like the DPS classes. I liked your suggestion from page 1, but it gave both classes a lot of abilities to have to put on hot bars.

So I was trying to get them "evened out" without going too big on ability bloat. I was also trying to preserve what identity they currently have--WAR being mostly GCD based with very few oGCDs; DRK having the simplest GCD rotation, but a much stronger focus on its oGCDs.

By "evened out", at least for DRK, what I mean is: get DRK to spread out its oGCD use a bit, so the opener isn't so insane (and the start of each subsequent minute) and the later half of each minute is a bit busier. I tried to accomplish that by moving the Blood GCDs to the oGCD (which means you can't start using them until a few GCDs in), and move the 'use on cd' oGCD (CaS, AD) to the GCD, but set them up as utility skills rather than part of the rotations. I was also trying to create a decision point for those abilities with Dark Arts that wasn't going to be one ability always being the best to use. It still kind of is, though: you only use CaS (well, Souleater as I had them swap for thematic/fluff reasons) or AD if you need to self heal, even with DA up. In that way, they're a bit like Clemency.

So I could see working CaS and AD into the single target or AoE rotations, respectively, to liven up the GCDs a bit. Ie, leave Souleater as it currently is (though maybe change the heal to a 5% shield), then make CaS a new combo finisher after Syphon Strike that does something (puts a DoT up, buffs Souleater in a certain way, etc). So you would go 1-2-CaS or 1-2-Soul. Or even make it a 4-hit combo, making DRK unique among the tanks for having the longest base combo.

For AD, you could do something similar, so you go either Unleash-AD or Unleash-Stalwart Soul, or like you suggested, make it a 1-2-3 kind of thing.

For WAR, it was focused more on having various finishers for combos to get buffs up, then it keeps doing its Inner Beast combo to keep the buffs up. 1 new oGCD for both single target and AoE (while also extending the AoE combo by 1 move). Though, with the way I suggested it, both Storm's Path and Eye turn into "fire and forget" abilities that you use at the start of a fight, then never really go back to.

This is the part where you just have to give the tanks multiple full combos like a melee they were DPS so that way the monotony becomes less noticeable(DRG and SAM are examples of melee DPS that do this a lot of justice, same with PLD and GNB).

As for Abyssal Drain, the 1-2-3 thing would only work if Unleash and Stalwart Soul were target AoEs like Abyssal Drain.

But the TL;DR version is that I believe having more oGCDs is raising the skill floor and having more GCDs is raising the skill ceiling, and removing GCDs is basically lowering the skill ceiling and adding oGCDs to raise the floor is to where the ceiling used to be is a bad idea(look at retail World of Warcraft as the prime example offender of this) and GCDs that have unique recast timer is a good balance of raising both skill floor and ceiling at the same time.