Diversifying Tanks

[Kabooa]

I think the GCDs are the easiest way to differentiate them, along with putting in some proper stances where appropriate.

As a short summary of thoughts, we'd have the Paladin with the Gladiator root having combos that change based on their stance, and skills that transition them from one stance to another.

The Warrior's weaponskills have a large recast difference between them (Some at 2.5, some at 5.0, etc) and as momentum/rage is built up, those recast times on the longer ones shorten while expending said momentum / rage.

The Dark Knight uses a more flexible system similar to Monk with Forward / Back transitions between them, each weaponskill similarly weighted for potency but applying different buffs / debuffs. Bloodspiller and Quietus being 'finishers' where the potency changes based on the previous 3 weaponskills. Your aim here is to get the right buffs / debuffs in place and then end it with the strongest finisher you can before the windows expire.

The Gunbreaker's rotates between 2-3 distinct combos, with Powder Charges instead being toggled on and expended to enhance them until they wear out. (The gauge would need to be expanded to hold more as well as increased generation over all).

[aqskerorokero]

let me understand how the hell Pld is boring now?! Two type of rotation built into his kit. Fast decision making to substitute Clemency with Holy spirit during requescat buff for safety sacrificing dps. Let's not even talk about aoe... Pld gets even two type of aoe rotation....How that's boring?

[Kali-ka]

let me understand how the hell Pld is boring now?! Two type of rotation built into his kit. Fast decision making to substitute Clemency with Holy spirit during requescat buff for safety sacrificing dps. Let's not even talk about aoe... Pld gets even two type of aoe rotation....How that's boring?

Calm down there buddy, it's personal opinion like I said. Even with 2 combo enders, 2 spam windows (although technically 3 if you count holy circle, spirit, and atonement) its still spamming 1 button in those windows, as is it's "additional" aoe rotation is still 1 button ending with another (confiteor). The PLD rotation to me feels way too samey.

Now, by comparison, I'm not saying that the other 3 tanks are that much more exciting, I just enjoy playing them more than PLD. And this is coming from someone who raided on PLD back in the orignal run of coil when it was actually 123, but you only had 1 other option. DRK is arguably more boring but I like the opener much more (probably my favorite opener of the 4 tanks) and even though it has only 1 real single target rotation, the OGCDs make it feel a tad bit better. WAR always felt good to me, despite needing some improvements here and there, I raided on WAR from 3.0 through 4.0 and it doesn't feel much less fun than it did back then. And GNB being my tank of choice now because even though it only has 2 single target rotations, they feel good to do and it flows better than PLD.

[Refrain695]

Small suggestion as I don't have too much time to post more thoughts, but the more that I play DRK (progging through Savage atm) the more that I recognise that the blood gauge doesn't really fit it's overall design very well. This could possibly be that it doesn't fit what I think DRK's design should be, but it still seems almost...tacked on? One idea I had was to allow EoS and FoS to generate a stack of a new resource similar to how cartridges work for GNB, and allow that resource to be used for bloodspillers etc. This would seperate WAR and DRK a bit more. (Assuming we would get rid of Delirium in the process)

[MaraD_]

There's a lot wrong with the tank design, half of which comes from skills like rampart, where every tank needed to match that, along with not making cohesive enough skill sets to match the jobs original theme. so instead they took basic MMO mechanics from all roles/classes, and gave a bit of each to everyone. (Such as how they gave every job a DoT.)
One last feature isnt skill sets, but how every job goes through pretty much the same pattern of job quests. (This is less important, but is a bit disappointing.)

WAR is basically FF5 berserker with the FFXI left overs. (The name Warrior is not to be confused with the Fighter/Warrior/Knight jobs of old FFs, those were different jobs)
Considering it started from a semi pirate class, I feel MRD should have gone Viking instead.

That put to the side, berserk making WAR going into a rampage of spamming the same skill is pretty much as close as you can get to the actual berserk skill of FF5.
Over all, WAR is a bit of a mess when it comes to its skills/mechanics matching its original theme as a barbarian. Because of this, mixed with lack of prior FF options, im going to save WAR for semi-last, and return to it.

PLD is basically the FF1 Fighter>Knight, FF3 Knight (some FF3 magic knight themes), FF4 Knight (called PLD in the US to make it stand out from Dark Knight. Otherwise it would be weird if Dark Knight upgraded to Knight) FF5 Knight/Warrior, FF11 Knight (called PLD in the US)
Normally PLDs white magic is what makes it stand out, compared to the other strong melee types who can take strong physical hits decently. But due to game design, this isnt a very good feature, PLUS the possibility of future tanks (we wont get) that could use this for their own flavor.
So going with what we got, Sheltron/Shield mechanics seem to be best, since PLD is the only shield user for some reason. (This is for theme)

DRK's primary mechanic that is shared in all games, is to sacrifice HP to deal damage in a situational way. Be it adding more damage. Damage that ignore defense. Damage that is ranged (the most common) or damage that is AoE. (One of the few melees with AoE in most FF games)
There's 2 different ways to go about this, but changing it slightly.
(1) The only HP sacrifice is to TBN, lose 5% HP, to gain ~20+% hp shield. (This woulda been fine in HW/SB, but with current numbers, this isnt as effective)
(2) Abilities cost HP, but with darkside up, you convert the HP cost to MP. If you're out of MP, HP is lost instead. (But if darkside is still up, the damage gained is lowered slightly)

2 being better suited for DRKs main themes.
(Side Note: Id use the blood gauge instead of MP. MP seems kinda dumb when you have blood. Also MP usage as a mechanic is better suited for another tank. (That we wont get.))


GNB doesnt have much of a theme to work with from prior titles. So its kinda free to be w/e. I would personally go with more of a Rune Fencer/Runic Knight kinda build/style. (And a story about how they upgraded from being runic knights prior)

With the games current tanks in mind ONLY, this leaves mitigation mechanic themes for WAR and GNB.

WAR seems to be the stock standard physical armor tank. Since RNG block design went to PLD, and temp HP went to DRK.
I would focus more on the berserk system, and trying to keep your "rage" up as much as possible, w/o actually hitting the max 100 "rage". (Sorry for lack of better word) Once its a 100, you berserk. You have inner Release, which is best suited to stack with berserk, so you ideally dont berserk until inner release is up.
So I'd design WARs mitigation to be enhanced when your rage is at higher numbers. (This applies to all mitigation tools)
Hitting something hard (fell cleave) helps alleviate your anger, so WAR would be similar to what it is now.
Holmgang would be replaced with something more Berserk feeling. (kind of like living dead, except you can only spam one skill once in walking dead/zerk) but off hand im not sure how to balance this, so as nto to be too good of a DPS increase, so its not just used as soon as the battle starts, and on CD. (Only methods I can think of, require rebuilding how tanking works for all tanks, closer to WoWs design)

GNB I can only think of parry, for the fencer theme, and some sorta elemental shields for magic dmg. (currently DRKs theme... dunno why)
I honestly care very little about GNB, so I wont really bother theorizing ideas for it, when I feel so many more jobs can use the ideas I have thought up.

Back to PLD, its mostly fine as is, with the exception its filler mitigation doesnt incorporate blocking more.
Its MP is used offensively, rather than defensively, which I feel it should have had Protect/Shell as anti tank buster skills. (they only last a few seconds)
None of its skills should have been -X% of an enemies attacks, so as to balance the other methods of mitigation better. (such as absorbing dmg with blood bath. its not effective as mitigation, due to PLD making -dmg% too good by comparison)
Shields block dmg based on block strength. (which acts like their own defense) NOT a % of the enemies dmg!!!

DRK being the HP tank is fine, we dont need to add magic def/parry/eva tanking to DRK. DRK should revolve around HP. (this was mostly explained already)

This leaves room for a lot of future tank ideas, w/o stacking them on the current tanks we have.
Such as a tank built around a convalescence type of mechanic. Self healing/absorbing tank. Evasion tank (this requires the biggest change to how tanking is handled). and some other mechanics i mentioned in other threads, where i listed every possible method of mitigating dmg in unique ways. (MMOs have only scratched probably half of whats possible, maybe less)

Lastly, the difference in the tanks should be based on;
(1) what is the bare minimum required for a fight? now add 1 extra option to each tank, for one of the requirements. (example: 3 magical tank busters, 3 physical. all tanks can handle 2 magical, but only one can hand the 3rd, while the same for physical. tank swapping effectively also handles this, but it helps make tanks "feel" a bit more unique. Other types of dmg are possible, but again requires some changes to combat design)
(2) Ratio of "Threat", "Filler Mitigation", "TB/invuln mitigation", "CC/support", and "DPS" being roughly equally capable, but different in difficulty to perform. (Example: 1 tank generates threat easily, so easily, they never even look at the threat. But they have to actively maintain mechanics to keep their basic suitability up, more so than other tanks. Another tank survives rather easily, only has to watch TBs, but spends most of the fight fighting to keep threat up.)

Once all of that is redesigned, THEN we can attempt to really fix whats going on with the tanks atm.

Otherwise, we're just adding band-aid fixes. With superfluous differences, like Sentinel vs Vengeance.
(Side note, we lack a lowered GCD tank, which I feel is better suited for 1hander tanks. Plus a DNC like tank, which does less direct dmg, but enhances the DPS of the other tank.)
Plus going into details on my opinions, followed by further opinions i hold, would take multiple pages worth of text. I've already typed up a lot, and said so little.

Do we actually need invuln moves. Could be more unique by taking those away. Instead of Living Dead you could have a super-TBN (long recast hp barrier worth 50% of max hp). and superbolide could, idk, set hp to 100% (full heal) but place a debuff on you that reduces heals received after that by 50% for some duration so there's some drawback to your self benediction.

Pretty much agree. BUT, if we're to ever have an evasion tank, invulns would help balance out an evasion tank. (yet again, requires a lot of changes. plus my eva tank isnt some speedy thf or nin style job)
But if no evasion tank, i say get rid of most invulns, and just make them very potent mitigation, that still allows for death.

DRK I think should be more focused on drains, I’d totally overhaul it because right now it is dark in name alone. Like calling the move shadow wall doesn’t make it any different from sentinel. But I’d try and keep some of the themes in place. For example the blackest night could become drain, absorb 500 potency of damage from the opponent restoring 25% of the DRKs HP, HP over the maximum is restored as a shield. Shadow wall could become absorb power, decrease the enemies damage dealt by 15% while reducing your damage taken by 15%. I’d just like to see some actual dark themed moves on dark knight, and draining like a vampire fits the bill (having more personal hp drains would also make living dead more viable as a move).

Absorb mechanics do seem to fit DRK thematically the best, but realistically, thats not always a DRK specialty.
Its been far more common in BLM.
Over all, If I were to give a tank the absorb theme, its hard not to think of the "Black Magic Knight" as the best candidate, which I feel is uneeded with the temp HP build I feel is best suited for DRK. (To fit the -hp mechanic only DRK has)
But I guess a Sorcerer/Mystic Knight could be next with an "Absorb Blade"/"En-Absorb" spell. (Which I said was closer to that of GNB. Yet again, GNB seems to just be a mixture of things, rather than having an identiy, which is why I hate it lol.)

The Warrior's weaponskills have a large recast difference between them (Some at 2.5, some at 5.0, etc) and as momentum/rage is built up, those recast times on the longer ones shorten while expending said momentum / rage.

I actually felt this way on the rage spenders. They can be performed at 0 rage, but have much higher GCDs as penalties. (To increase the feel of a large 2handed weapon)

[Yrantis]

Without trying to start an argument, but is part of this thread's purpose to discuss whether tank defensive abilities need diversifying at all? It seems like it would be nigh impossible to balance tanks effectively if they differentiate the defensive cooldowns too much, especially when it comes to fights like say, E2S. That fight (at matching ilvl) demands two defensive cooldowns for very similar defensive values per TB, or else one of the tanks just gets smeared and a healer has to cover for them. You already have issues like Vengeance for WAR practically forcing them (slightly exaggerating) to be MT or risk losing out on damage, in a role slot that already only has 2 per boss in your standard 8 man content.

Wouldn't it be easier to make them more diverse in their offensive abilities instead? Being a few hundred DPS behind the meta tank isn't even close to a death sentence, but if your mitigation isn't up to the task your class becomes an extra healer stressor at best and a liability at worst, this reasoning feels like it's a large part of the reason tanks are currently balanced so well. I can swap between all four of them on basically any of the Savage fights, some are more optimal than others on certain fights, and PLD/GNB outshine DRK/WAR on damage by a few hundred DPS right now, but the difference is so little nobody cares what you play as. Despite this, the tanks feel pretty diverse in practice, even if not on paper. GNB is high APM rotation that plays out almost exactly like a DPS's full rotation, they're the OGCD kings of the tank and you feel it during the fight (for better and worse). PLD is as strict a rotation as you can get, which means it's pretty punishing if you mess up, but the actual rotation is a slow and steady pace, and the ability to do BLM levels of on demand movement with your instant cast window is a true feeling of freedom (not to mention the ability to basically solo leveling dungeons once you get Clemency). WAR is the stout and simple basic tank you'd find in most MMOs, but with the added interest in this game of having absolutely massive burst damage. You may not care for the simple playstyle, but it's generally important to have one class that's just a little bit more basic than the others in your MMO. The DPS have SAM, the tanks have WAR, the healers have WHM. That's not to say the skill ceiling isn't as high for these classes as others, but the skill floor is definitely lowered. DRK I have the least experience with and I admit most on this forum seem to consider it the most "problematic" of the tanks, but speaking purely from a balance perspective: there is no shortage. Tanks are balanced well right now, diverse defensives will threaten that unless the dev team designs every boss with all the tanks in mind (never going to happen).

[Shurrikhan]

Without trying to start an argument, but is part of this thread's purpose to discuss whether tank defensive abilities need diversifying at all?

No. The assumption is that tanks do need diversity and that balance is possible despite diversity. If you would like to argue that point, feel free to do so elsewhere. This thread is, as per its title, about Diversifying Tanks.

Thanks for clarifying, that's why I wanted to ask. Although I never said no diversity at all just to be clear. Still, I'll avoid de-railing the topic.

I feel that while I perhaps clarified the general point, I did a poor job of conveying specifics. I most likely spoke in haste out of seeing so many topics derailed at the stage of roughly defined principle ("illusion of choice", etc) before they've even had a chance to put those principles in useful context.

Let this be my actual clarification instead.

How much you diversify according to mitigation cooldowns or even entirely new systems of mitigation -- there could be not a single CD, instead basing everything on equal parts gauge resources, secondary gauge resources built from the primary resource being spent, and MP -- is up to you. If you can manage to make them feel sufficiently different while leaving the mitigation cooldowns mostly the same, that's fine. But the thread's premise is that there is room within even tight balance to differentiate them in nearly ever regard except practical capacity. That is to say they should be capable of surviving the same core hits with little to no supporting shields, putting out roughly the same rDPS (including by means that are hard to quantify), etc, but how they do so should feel relatively distinct insofar as is needed to make the overall kits each feel cohesive and compelling.

Without a doubt, tanks are the most balanced they've ever been, and that's saying a lot given that they were already very tightly balanced by most MMOs' standards in late SB. And I'd agree that's something to hold on to. I just ask that you give the posts the benefit of the doubt that, even if the ideas presented may be many shades of pipedream for the moment, there exists an iteration as compelling as what we seek that can nonetheless remain balanced, and that it's worth working towards such an iteration.

[Yrantis]

No. The assumption is that tanks do need diversity and that balance is possible despite diversity. If you would like to argue that point, feel free to do so elsewhere. This thread is, as per its title, Diversifying Tanks.

Thanks for clarifying, that's why I wanted to ask. Although I never said no diversity at all just to be clear. Still, I'll avoid de-railing the topic.

[EpicOverlord85]

The homogenization of jobs and dumbing down of skill sets is honestly not good for the game. It may feel good in the short term, but in long term you’ll be seeing more extreme versions of burn out.

[Dzian]

Without trying to start an argument, but is part of this thread's purpose to discuss whether tank defensive abilities need diversifying at all? It seems like it would be nigh impossible to balance tanks effectively if they differentiate the defensive cooldowns too much, especially when it comes to fights like say, E2S. That fight (at matching ilvl) demands two defensive cooldowns for very similar defensive values per TB, or else one of the tanks just gets smeared and a healer has to cover for them. You already have issues like Vengeance for WAR practically forcing them (slightly exaggerating) to be MT or risk losing out on damage, in a role slot that already only has 2 per boss in your standard 8 man content.

Wouldn't it be easier to make them more diverse in their offensive abilities instead? Being a few hundred DPS behind the meta tank isn't even close to a death sentence, but if your mitigation isn't up to the task your class becomes an extra healer stressor at best and a liability at worst,

You could diversify the defencsive toolkits quite substantially just be emphasizing more the differences between physical and magical damage and varying the levels of effectiveness accordingly.

If you look back to HW Paladin was a rahter weak magic damage tank but a real strong physical damage tank. DRK was a rather weak physical tank but a real strong magical tank and warrior was kinda middle of the road with both. this worked quite well and was fine right up until the devs went and made an entire tier of content almost exclusively magic damage...

the jobs having different defensive capabilites wasn't a problem. the problem was the badly designed content.

had the content been designed better it wouldn't have been an issue. sure there would have been powerful magic damage attacks that would have caused a paladin tank some real pain and maybe taxed the healers a little bit more. but had that same encounter had some physical attacks of equal power that paladin tank would then have shrugged them off and granted the healers some extra breathing room. as such it would have balanced itself out.

Darknights would have been the opposite way around and warriors would have been more or less taking consistant damage throughout the enocunter.. thus every job despite having differing defensive capabilites would be viable..

not every job needs to be equally good at everything...