summoner should get a do-over

[Eloah]

just wipe the slate clean and give us something like the xi summoner. i wouldn't even be mad if in 6.0 rather than 2 new classes they just scrapped summoner and made 1 new class and a new and improved summoner. they just keep slapping bandaid upon bandaid upon bandaid instead of properly cleaning and sealing the wound

Sorry, I couldnt even move past this post, it was kinda funny. Now I never played XI, and I wont claim XIV's Summoner is the pinnacle of jobs, but with all of the information I've looked up and heard from veterans, XIV's Summoner is better than XI's by a wide margin. The only thing XI's Summoner had going for it, was that the Avatars were true to their original forms. Otherwise, XI and XIV's Summoners are designed identically, but XIV's doesn't rely on a secondary job to be useful. I'm not saying XIV's Summoner can't be improved, but you can't ask for it to be more like XI's since it already it.

Why would ACN branch into SCH? SCH is the weird one here because it is a DPS becoming a healer.

Actually, SMN is the odd one out, since thematically ACN and SCH have similar lore. True the shift from DPS to Healer is odd, but SMN is the odd one in this situation.

[dinnertime]

Diehards used to say the same with mcn "if you don't like it, its not for you, don't play it", but a little listening to player feedback and then actually thinking the job through and look how much better it is now. Just because it is good for you, does not mean it is good. If it were we wouldn't be having this conversation again and again and again on these forums.

The difference between MCH and SMN is that MCH actually did play terribly gameplay-wise. Of course this was subjective, but this has been the most common complaint with MCH.

Meanwhile the complaints SMN gets is "it doesn't feel like a summoner" and yet it plays well. There are few instances where the gameplay was problematic and that was shortly in 2.x for getting balanced while it's tied to SCH, 4.0 launch and currently in 5.0.

There's a difference there. SMN and BRD are more comparable because they're fine to play but the playerbase complains about job identity. Yes, we can hope to see more summoning-related things for SMN in the future but a do-over from scratch might cause more harm than good, especially for the people who actually play/like the job for what it is. Ignoring the awkward 5.0 changes, it played fine at large and it doesn't need to be messed with.

[Freyt]

I want summoner to "equip" summons. It shares the idea with Dreadwyrm Trance where the power of Bahamut is invoked, rather than brought in as a separate power. Something like if you summon Ifrit, he isn't out there attacking on his own, but your Ruin spell is transformed into some sort of ranged fire slash or other effect that Ifrit contributes to. Outburst would change similarly. The visuals of these skills would be the main appeal, but would also be varied and balanced across summons. "Summon Demi-Bahamut" could be eliminated, and Dreadwyrm Trance would serve to summon Demi Bahamut in a similar effect, and Ruin would then become "Wyrmwave". The build up to use Demi Bahamut could still be the same or similar.

[Makeda]

I thought summoner was getting a redesign in 5.1?

Or is that just Ninja?

[Sunako]

I thought summoner was getting a redesign in 5.1?

Or is that just Ninja?

They only mentioned reducing dependency smn dots in the live letter and that already fixed during 5.08 so i would not expect too much from 5.1. I think their main focus is reworking ninja on 5.1.

[dinnertime]

I thought summoner was getting a redesign in 5.1?

Or is that just Ninja?

Yes, It's getting changes in 5.1. I wouldn't say redesign, they'll just fix the awkwardness the job has after 5.0 launch.

[LauraAdalena]

I feel like it's posts like this that lead to identity crisis jobs. Can we not just ask for a "complete redo" on a class just because certain people don't like the direction they're taking it?

Plus, I feel like a lot of these suggestions I'm seeing from this thread are just people complaining about not summoning "real" summons, the use of poisons, and ruin/tri-disaster (for some reason? I'm not sure I understand the ruin/tri-disaster hate).

I'm not saying the job doesn't need changes, it does have some flaws, but what I'm seeing from a lot of people aren't changes that actually fix the problems but wanting a completely different class or job altogether. idk if it's because MCH got a rework or if it's because of their implied NIN changes...But we don't need them. The one thing that should be changed asap is the Egi Assaults. Those are not fun and seem to be the one thing that everyone, even people who enjoy the class such as I, agrees needs changing/removing because of cooldown ghosting, enormous lag between commanding and pet using it to the point where a form that removes it comes up and a Ruin 4 is lost as well as all damage the ability would have done.

What I am saying is can we stop acting like SMN needs a complete overhaul, needs to be FFXI SMN (please god no), or even have certain elements removed entirely. (such as the Egis... I WON'T GIVE THEM UP BECAUSE I LOVE HAVING CARBUNCLE OUT I'M SORRY). It's not broken, it's not the worst class, it is in a bad place compared to where it usually is, but honestly just because of that doesn't mean it's one of the most dire classes. As a fan of the class, even I have to admit AST and Ninja should probably get bigger changes coming up rather than SMN given how those have bigger issues (ast to a lesser degree now than back when SHB started, but I'd still like to see some changes). If anything, I'd put its state closer to SAM where it's not great but it could do so much better.

[CrimsonGunner]

I feel like it's posts like this that lead to identity crisis jobs. Can we not just ask for a "complete redo" on a class just because certain people don't like the direction they're taking it?

you may feel like that but those that post about SMN problems don't feel that way and right now just cause you love carbuncle doesn't make it ok to ignore things as they stand. it isn't about making summoner to his XI or killing egi in general cause they are ugly.
people want egi to be more like demi summon cause it feels exactly like a summon suppose to be,they want XI summoner cause despite his flaws it felt like a summoner.
the most prime concern we all have for summoner isn't make it XI or pet oriented, its first and most of all is to be a summoner with a summon focused kit, with pets that work right and a kit that empathize summoning.
whatever direction SE takes with summoner either pet/XI each one is fine as long as it is focus on summoning.
the problem we all complain about is the most urgent one of all,at the current kit summoning isn't the main focus its an extra thrown in there with a system that is clunky and unresponsive with bugs that can impact its dps severely.
not only that but the current system limit the summoning to barely 4-5 summons, where we only have ifrit,garuda,titan,bahamut and now phoenix but where the fuck is bismark/ravana/sri lakshmi heck what about our favorites ramuh/leviathan/shiva.
so sorry,just cause you love carbuncle wont protect this sorry excuse of a kit that summoner was handled and it must be changed.
egi system must be reworked/changed cause of that egi assault and its bugs,the lack of summons,the fact that each part of the kit is literally separated from each other and most of all that summons are not truly a main theme of this kit but rather an extra thrown to call it summoner.

[LauraAdalena]

you may feel like that but those that post about SMN problems don't feel that way and right now just cause you love carbuncle doesn't make it ok to ignore things as they stand. it isn't about making summoner to his XI or killing egi in general cause they are ugly.
people want egi to be more like demi summon cause it feels exactly like a summon suppose to be,they want XI summoner cause despite his flaws it felt like a summoner.
the most prime concern we all have for summoner isn't make it XI or pet oriented, its first and most of all is to be a summoner with a summon focused kit, with pets that work right and a kit that empathize summoning.
whatever direction SE takes with summoner either pet/XI each one is fine as long as it is focus on summoning.
the problem we all complain about is the most urgent one of all,at the current kit summoning isn't the main focus its an extra thrown in there with a system that is clunky and unresponsive with bugs that can impact its dps severely.
not only that but the current system limit the summoning to barely 4-5 summons, where we only have ifrit,garuda,titan,bahamut and now phoenix but where the fuck is bismark/ravana/sri lakshmi heck what about our favorites ramuh/leviathan/shiva.
so sorry,just cause you love carbuncle wont protect this sorry excuse of a kit that summoner was handled and it must be changed.
egi system must be reworked/changed cause of that egi assault and its bugs,the lack of summons,the fact that each part of the kit is literally separated from each other and most of all that summons are not truly a main theme of this kit but rather an extra thrown to call it summoner.

Did you read my post? I even point out there are problems and highlight the most agreed upon one. It's not the only one, I used it to highlight how I know it has issues.

I wasn't even ignoring any issues, I was just selecting what I saw after reading a majority of the posts here, people wanting things completely cut and replaced. Are all of them wrong for wanting it? Hell no. I'm just saying we shouldn't go completely re-vamping the class and focus on refining it.

Each one may be fine, but if you've played any game where summoner was a job or a title that a character went by you'd notice a running theme: they don't just exclusively summon. yes, it's the best part of them but FF3 and 5 they casted black magics, FF4 whatsherface (I always forget her name) uses black magic, FF9 and X both have summoners who use white magic (for X it's at the start because each character on the normal grid can become a jack-of-all-trades).

the most urgent one of all,at the current kit summoning isn't the main focus, its an extra thrown in there with a system that is clunky and unresponsive with bugs that can impact DPS severely.

The one thing that should be changed asap is the Egi Assaults. Those are not fun and seem to be the one thing that everyone, even people who enjoy the class such as I, agrees needs changing/removing because of cooldown ghosting, enormous lag between commanding and pet using it to the point where a form that removes it comes up and a Ruin 4 is lost as well as all damage the ability would have done.

no seriously, did you read my post? That buggy/clunky system is Egi Assault. I'm not saying it's good, I'm not even saying that anything I've said is in defense of it, I'm just saying that it has problems and I acknowledge them. I didn't want to make a long post going in detail about every problem with the class... and yet here I am now, making a longer post than I wanted to.

I wasn't even trying to protect the "sorry excuse of a kit that summoner was handled" with my love for carbuncles. i was just saying that I won't give it up. Nobody else. Why you gotta be so aggressive?

Honestly, I don't think much of what you said. IDK if you read some subtext I didn't intend or something, but I am happy where the class is it doesn't mean I don't think some of what you guys are saying is cool, or that it would be more like Summoner if that happened. Just that I enjoy the class from a gameplay standpoint and would love it even more if these things are changed.

EDIT: Also, just because people are posting doesn't mean people don't like it at all. A majority of players don't use the forums and a majority of those players only really say things because they have random thoughts they want to confirm or negative thoughts. I'm not even saying this to bash people who use the forums, it's a well-known fact. There's plenty of people who might not say anything but like the job as-is and, according to a poll, about half are actually content with where the class is. Content, not happy.

[CrimsonGunner]

Did you read my post? I even point out there are problems and highlight the most agreed upon one. It's not the only one, I used it to highlight how I know it has issues.

i have read your post and that's why its infuriating cause there is an identity crisis to my favorite class and thats why i speak.
i will apologize about my rash anger about you giving reason to the egi assault system. but again summoner is in a bad place game play wise.

it must have an overhaul in terms of its system and kit.
all the issues of summoner :egi system,more primals,having summon impact the kit, all those things are a lot of work that technically screams rework.

also those summoners in the different games who used black/white magic were playing another role along side being a summoner meaning they were summoner and white/black mage in the party and those skills weren't part of the job known as summoner.
take yuna from X she was the healer of the group the white mage and calling aeons was her other job aka summoner.
if you want an example of the summoner job then look at final fantasy tactic advance,they basically call forth a being to aid them(true its a one shot skill but the main idea is they call them forth to help in battle) summoning can be either how yuna summons and a pet comes to fight alongside you or the other way when it comes to deliver its attack and leave.

what we focus on is the act of summoning ,calling powerful beings to our side,and not being able to cast spells such as bio/ruin as a black mage can in different parts of ff history. summoner isn't a poison class ,it calls forth beings to his help just like carbuncle and we want a kit that emphasize that.
also nobody speaks about removing carbuncle only the primal egi's which i think appearnce doesn't that matter only the core of it does.