Monk Role needs Changes

[alimdia]

I wouldn't label OP as trolling though, the complaints about Anatman, Six Sided Star and Tornado Kick exist even in The Balance. The community in general tends to be less than thrilled with skills that are too situational. Also the Anatman opener was talked about even before ShB released.

The only thing is that OP shouldn't label this as some dire situation.

[Lunavi]

I wouldn't label OP as trolling though, the complaints about Anatman, Six Sided Star and Tornado Kick exist even in The Balance. The community in general tends to be less than thrilled with skills that are too situational. Also the Anatman opener was talked about even before ShB released.

The only thing is that OP shouldn't label this as some dire situation.

Yeah, and BLMs have Blizzard II, Fire II, Blizzard I, Scathe (which while it has very niche uses, still isn't used 99.9% of the cases and when it is used it is diminishing returns), Sleep, and Lucid Dreaming as dead abilities. To even make the claim that MNK is getting the short end of the stick is like claiming that you are the most unlucky person on earth because your Kobe steak is medium well instead of medium rare while your neighbor has to go through trash bins to find food for themselves and their families. Same if I would unironically sit here and claim that BLMs are in a bad spot (which they ain't) because Blizzard I is a dead abilitiy.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Yeah, and BLMs have Blizzard II, Fire II, Blizzard I, Scathe (which while it has very niche uses, still isn't used 99.9% of the cases and when it is used it is diminishing returns), Sleep, and Lucid Dreaming as dead abilities. To even make the claim that MNK is getting the short end of the stick is like claiming that you are the most unlucky person on earth because your Kobe steak is medium well instead of medium rare while your neighbor has to go through trash bins to find food for themselves and their families. Same if I would unironically sit here and claim that BLMs are in a bad spot (which they ain't) because Blizzard I is a dead abilitiy.

Difference being is that through the expansions, the blm actually evolved. Monk has been the same sense ARR.

And besides i listed blm in the classes that needed t9 be fixed in one of my replys.

[grinkdaboy]

i think something should be said about optimal monk play necessitating the use of a 3rd party plugin/modification

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

i think something should be said about optimal monk play necessitating the use of a 3rd party plugin/modification

I totally agree, you sgould never have to outsource to a 3rd party just to use an ingame skill effectively.

This goes for any class and any skill.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Id like to take a moment to ask any monks in the room if they find the current state of the monk class fun.

I wanna know if its fun to you. What about is fun. Does any of the changes thats happened to the monk throughout the expansions appeal to you...or put you off. Has your rotations been altered by the changes greatly.

Positive and negatives.

Lets have a discussion.

And if you read through the origional post, what do you think the changes i proposed would do to the class to expand on what the monk origionally was.

Would it be fun for you?

[Deithwen]

snip

Heya, I've been a main Monk since Arr, and an experienced raider with this job since Arr as well (although I play all melees, I mostly prog as monk or samurai).

I agree with you mostly, Monk has very good numbers today, but since stormblood the job is a complete mess riddled with useless skills or skills that are so niche, they actually reduce our DPS.

- Tornado kick : very useless skill although it was good at the end of stormblood (this was probably the best rotation Monk ever had, while it lasted). As for now, it is even less useful because of Six Sided Star and the ability to keep GL forever. Be happy to even use it properly once during a fight. Also I see many beginners using it all the time, which is very bad. Its design itself is counter intuitive as Monks are encouraged to keep their staks and have many things to keep them up. The skill needs a complete redesign.
- Six sided star : kind of the new tornado kick in terms of usage, very underwhelming, DPS loss if used at the wrong time and the worst part is that it is still tied to GCD.
- Riddle of earth : formerly used to maintain stacks, it had a few use cases in Storblood. Now it is just an OP True North. This skill is competely overpowered as we speak now.
- Riddle of wind : was good at the end of stormblood as it allowed the tornado kick rotation (although it was really garbage at the start, like the most useless thing ever). Now it's just gone.
- One ilm punch : although it was removed in Shadowbringers, this skill was trash from the beginning and could just be removed from the hotbar. It took the devs 6 years to remove it and replace it with a proper AOE move.
- Riddle of fire : it was awful in Stormblood, being slowed down was horrible however I see why the devs did this so we could double weave. But still the feeling was bad.
- Brotherhood : random chackra proc, this is awful too. Monks was a steady job that needed skill only to perform good. Rng was not needed and it needs to be removed.
- Touch of death : RIP ... It actually was a nice skill for monk, that would allow us some control over the flow of our rotation, same for fracture. But you know, lower the skill ceiling ...
- Anatman : almost useless since we can keep stacks forever. The only use case is if we have enough downtime to TK and anatman after, which almost never happens again. Worst part of it : it is tied to server tick and we need it for the optimal opener. This makes me want to quit monk until fixed. I sincerly hope this is an oversight because if I imagine that someone approved this I can't help but facepalming.


And also they removed two offgcds, making the main rotation even more boring.

All of this leaves barely any doubt : no one in the Dev team knows the job and how to play it. They've let monks down since the first expansion.
We've got so far : almost no change in HW and were buffed many times then SB broke the job then fixed it and now broken again in ShB although the dps is great (actually competely OP).

I strongly believe that Monk, like Mch needs a complete rework from ground up. No amount of fixes would be anough at this point without taking the time to really think about the job itself.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Heya, I've been a main Monk since Arr, and an experienced raider with this job since Arr as well (although I play all melees, I mostly prog as monk or samurai).

I agree with you mostly, Monk has very good numbers today, but since stormblood the job is a complete mess riddled with useless skills or skills that are so niche, they actually reduce our DPS.

- Tornado kick : very useless skill although it was good at the end of stormblood (this was probably the best rotation Monk ever had, while it lasted). As for now, it is even less useful because of Six Sided Star and the ability to keep GL forever. Be happy to even use it properly once during a fight. Also I see many beginners using it all the time, which is very bad. Its design itself is counter intuitive as Monks are encouraged to keep their staks and have many things to keep them up. The skill needs a complete redesign.
- Six sided star : kind of the new tornado kick in terms of usage, very underwhelming, DPS loss if used at the wrong time and the worst part is that it is still tied to GCD.
- Riddle of earth : formerly used to maintain stacks, it had a few use cases in Storblood. Now it is just an OP True North. This skill is competely overpowered as we speak now.
- Riddle of wind : was good at the end of stormblood as it allowed the tornado kick rotation (although it was really garbage at the start, like the most useless thing ever). Now it's just gone.
- One ilm punch : although it was removed in Shadowbringers, this skill was trash from the beginning and could just be removed from the hotbar. It took the devs 6 years to remove it and replace it with a proper AOE move.
- Riddle of fire : it was awful in Stormblood, being slowed down was horrible however I see why the devs did this so we could double weave. But still the feeling was bad.
- Brotherhood : random chackra proc, this is awful too. Monks was a steady job that needed skill only to perform good. Rng was not needed and it needs to be removed.
- Touch of death : RIP ... It actually was a nice skill for monk, that would allow us some control over the flow of our rotation, same for fracture. But you know, lower the skill ceiling ...
- Anatman : almost useless since we can keep stacks forever. The only use case is if we have enough downtime to TK and anatman after, which almost never happens again. Worst part of it : it is tied to server tick and we need it for the optimal opener. This makes me want to quit monk until fixed. I sincerly hope this is an oversight because if I imagine that someone approved this I can't help but facepalming.


And also they removed two offgcds, making the main rotation even more boring.

All of this leaves barely any doubt : no one in the Dev team knows the job and how to play it. They've let monks down since the first expansion.
We've got so far : almost no change in HW and were buffed many times then SB broke the job then fixed it and now broken again in ShB although the dps is great (actually competely OP).

I strongly believe that Monk, like Mch needs a complete rework from ground up. No amount of fixes would be anough at this point without taking the time to really think about the job itself.

Im so happy to see someone else that shares my view of the monks standings.

What points of my proposal did u agree/disagree with? Would you think it could fix and start to evolve the monk?

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Ive made a QoL adjustment to my Op. For those of you that dont wish to skim through my ramblings.

[LauraAdalena]

I'm going to say my piece then leave.
1. Samurai is getting attention because right now it is far below where it should be and Monk is far above where it should be right now so things will likely stay the same.

2. Tornado Kick openers, from what I remember, always sucked to learn because they felt horrible since you lost all of your stacks, regardless of some Riddle of Wind buff.

3. Tackle Mastery was a joke in the community for creating one that was the same but just slightly more powerful tackle, one that was useless, and one that was situational. I also love how you keep saying "Bring back riddle of wind" but trashing abilities for being too situational.

4. you sound like someone who just figured out that Tornado Kick isn't useful in your opener and has been doing that for a while until someone pointed it out to you and you're upset about it now. Not saying that's what you are, just that you do.

5. Please spell check if you're going to type something long like this.

6. SSS is lauded by the community for being the most situational ability in this expansion. Almost as much as tackle mastery was the most useless trait.

7. I don't care if you say not to bring up downtime, I'm going to bring it up anyway. Anantman gives you chakras. Just use it during downtime. Form Shift doesn't give you chakras.

8. If you have downtime where you will lose sacks, and cannot maintain them like through Anantman or Form Shift, ditch them with Tornado Kick and save TK for that. It's not dead, just situational. EDIT: A good example might be E1 (Normal or Savage). That animation you will lose stacks and you can't do anything during it.

9. You don't get as many chakras with Brotherhood because of the crit change. It's nothing to do with anything else, afaik.

10. Overusing punctuation doesn't help emphasize points, it just pads your post making it harder to get through when you make a long one like this. One that's shorter I can forgive overuse of punctuation.