Please make tanks more unique by making the 30% damage reduction skills different

[Lyth]

You can make them identical if you like, but don't change the animations. Shadowskin was an amazing animation. I don't want to see the same happen to Shadow Wall.

[Freyyy]

You can make them identical if you like, but don't change the animations. Shadowskin was an amazing animation. I don't want to see the same happen to Shadow Wall.

Imagine having Sentinel's animation on DRK...

[PyurBlue]

I'd rather the mitigation tools be useful and effective across all tanks than devs screw them up for the sake of feeling unique.

Well yes, but can't the CD's be both unique and effective?

Sentinel had to be changed to compete with the other "higher mitigation" abilities. 40% was overkill, and 3 min recast was way too long. It's a relict from HW where PLD struggled against multiple magical tankbusters because of Sentinels high recast time.

Vengeance had to be nerfed because it was overpowered. And honestly, they should remove the spike effect and just buff a few skills instead.

Along with buffing Sentinel, we lost Bulwark though. We already had an answer to Sentiel's long CD by having another mitigation tool that effectively cut the CD in half if you alternated them. An alternative change could have involved tweaking instead of homogenizing and culling.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Along with buffing Sentinel, we lost Bulwark though. We already had an answer to Sentiel's long CD by having another mitigation tool that effectively cut the CD in half if you alternated them. An alternative change could have involved tweaking instead of homogenizing and culling.

PLD lost Bulwark due to the buff to Sheltron... and honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others. Usually you would hope rampart was off cooldown and can pair sheltron, even then that was never enough, example being the first Homing Laser at the start of ultima in uwu where you would need apoc also, or if you got cucked in o10s on the debuffs in the latter phase.
Speaking of Bulwark, it was only really worth using on trash packs or for fluff damage like autos, relying on an RNG dependent cool down is just terrible for tankbusters, the skill itself was awful for a 3 minute recast. There is nothing wrong with the current 30% DR skills, there's no need to tamper or tweak with them, they're used to mitigate damage, trying to put fancy bells and ribbons on them is a pointless endeavor.

[Quri]

PLD lost Bulwark due to the buff to Sheltron... and honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others. Usually you would hope rampart was off cooldown and can pair sheltron, even then that was never enough, example being the first Homing Laser at the start of ultima in uwu where you would need apoc also, or if you got cucked in o10s on the debuffs in the latter phase.
Speaking of Bulwark, it was only really worth using on trash packs or for fluff damage like autos, relying on an RNG dependent cool down is just terrible for tankbusters, the skill itself was awful for a 3 minute recast. There is nothing wrong with the current 30% DR skills, there's no need to tamper or tweak with them, they're used to mitigate damage, trying to put fancy bells and ribbons on them is a pointless endeavor.

Its about not having the same skill for 3 tanks, plus all four need an additional 5 second duration.

[Samsta]

PLD lost Bulwark due to the buff to Sheltron... and honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others. Usually you would hope rampart was off cooldown and can pair sheltron, even then that was never enough, example being the first Homing Laser at the start of ultima in uwu where you would need apoc also, or if you got cucked in o10s on the debuffs in the latter phase.
Speaking of Bulwark, it was only really worth using on trash packs or for fluff damage like autos, relying on an RNG dependent cool down is just terrible for tankbusters, the skill itself was awful for a 3 minute recast. There is nothing wrong with the current 30% DR skills, there's no need to tamper or tweak with them, they're used to mitigate damage, trying to put fancy bells and ribbons on them is a pointless endeavor.

The fact that they are used to mitigate damage doesn't mean they can't do it in a different and interesting ways. Damage skills are also used to deal damage, why bother making them different? Every dps in this game is just doing damage, in fact no matter what you think about it all the skills in the game are just ways to do a couple of different things with "fancy bell and ribbons", it's precisely those fancy bells and ribbons why we like some over the other. What's the point of having different classes in the first place if they have so many same abilities?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

The fact that they are used to mitigate damage doesn't mean they can't do it in a different and interesting ways. Damage skills are also used to deal damage, why bother making them different? Every dps in this game is just doing damage, in fact no matter what you think about it all the skills in the game are just ways to do a couple of different things with "fancy bell and ribbons", it's precisely those fancy bells and ribbons why we like some over the other. What's the point of having different classes in the first place if they have so many same abilities?

So first off, there is only Three forms of damage mitigation in this game where this discussion is concerned, damage reduction skills (Standard tank CDs), HP based shields, and damage reduction applied to the boss (Reprisal, Addle, Feint). Tank invulns exist, but they're whatever. Damage reduction, personally they are easier to balance, no need for "bells and ribbons".

HP based shields, are incredibly difficult to balance against standard damage reduction, as damage intake increases, their ability to mitigate lessens if the hp doesn't meet the same scale of increase. So on undergeared tanks is becomes a detriment while it's effect duration also ends a lot sooner than the standard damage reduction skills.

Damage reduction debuff, at 30% will be rediculously broken on raidbusters and more often than not pointless in dungeon content, unless it's AoE, and then making it even more broken in Savage and Ultimate fights with multiple enemies.

Adding secondary effects, unless they're all damage in some form like Vengeance, there will be complaints. "Why do they get more damage from theirs, while mine gives me more defensive than I don't actually need."

[Quri]

So first off, there is only ThreeAdding secondary effects, unless they're all damage in some form like Vengeance, there will be complaints. "Why do they get more damage from theirs, while mine gives me more defensive than I actually need."

Better to have that, than three skills being the same, seeing how we are already having that discussion. Three Sentinels, one Vengeance.

[MaraD_]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that mitigation for tanks don't need to be, or even feel, different.

Same can be said about DPS rotations.
I think there should be tanks with more focus on mitigation gameplay, and some with more DPS rotation gameplay, and some which are middle ground mixture.

i rather preffer they make tanks more unique by removing rampart and bring back shadow skin and foresight while creating something for GNB and focus on make tanks overall gameplay more unique and stop copy pasting mechanics on almost all of them.

Pretty much this, but they do need to keep in mind that some balance needs to be met, to make that uniqueness work. (Which they were semi close before, but didnt want to work it out.)

You can make them identical if you like, but don't change the animations. Shadowskin was an amazing animation. I don't want to see the same happen to Shadow Wall.

I feel that the bare minimum would be different animations. (They could even call them the same name, like Rampart, but have shadow skin animation/foresight. liek they used to do with cross role skills back in 2.0 DRG using Savage blade looked different than PLD savage blade)

The 3min CDs can be identical, but they should using that spared time honing down on the 3rd mitigation skills and self heals..
Some could be more refined or made more characteristic of the job/playstyle, since these actions don't really factor as much

One could be shorter, but 5% weaker, or a bit longer but 5% stronger. the 3min requirement isnt needed.
The other mitigation options would flow a bit better, if their "common/shared" mitigation options were better suited for their theme, rather than copy/pastes. So its possible, but hard to fix this problem, w/o fixing the other.

honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others.

Thats because they didnt increase the CD by 10%, (Which was 12 seconds) but instead increased it by another minute.
Plus the idea doesnt work too well, when all bosses have TB times lined up for a different timing than sentinel. In short, the other -30%s should have been shorter to compensate.

Why do they need an additional 5 seconds longer

Based on current design, they usually dont. But thats on SE not actually making content to fit their idea, not the idea of a longer lasting CD. (but you're right that its still a fair argument for the current build of the game)

So first off, there is only Three forms of damage mitigation in this game where this discussion is concerned, damage reduction skills (Standard tank CDs), HP based shields, and damage reduction applied to the boss (Reprisal, Addle, Feint). Tank invulns exist, but they're whatever. Damage reduction, personally they are easier to balance, no need for "bells and ribbons".

Both over simplified, and misunderstanding of those mechanics/issues. Lowering an enemies dmg through a buff or debuff is essentially the same thing. What is different is the trigger requirements, not the mitigation type. (Just as invulnerability is a -X% skill too, where the % is 100% as long as the requirement is met.)
The next part being about "Whats in the game" as that makes it sound like nothing else can exist within the way the game currently treats mitigation. But this is me assuming your intent, so I'll give that the benefit of the doubt.

HP based shields, are incredibly difficult to balance against standard damage reduction, as damage intake increases, their ability to mitigate lessens if the hp doesn't meet the same scale of increase. So on undergeared tanks is becomes a detriment while it's effect duration also ends a lot sooner than the standard damage reduction skills.

This is why we've been saying -X% of dmg taken is a broken as heck mechanic. (Ever since 2.0) This should never have been the way mitigation was handled. It should have been +X% of a stat YOU have. Such as defense/m.def. (Plus those buffs needed to be a LOT higher than a measly +20% that foresight gave)

Damage reduction debuff, at 30% will be rediculously broken on raidbusters and more often than not pointless in dungeon content, unless it's AoE, and then making it even more broken in Savage and Ultimate fights with multiple enemies.

Mostly agree with this. The only exception requires something this game doesnt have, so no point in me talking about it lol. (But the reason i bother to quote this, is because its possible to balance around.)

I do however think tanks should be differentiated through playstyle, instead of by having similar defensive toolkits.

Depending on what that entails, this is mostly how I feel the game should be made. But I feel we have different opinions on what this means.

This is pointless, unless Bulwark was guaranteed damage reduction, it's a terrible skill, RNG is this game is pretty bad

Persoanlly I loved having filler mitigation on auto attacks, BUT I do agree its not needed. BUT thats an issue on the design. The only damage that matters in endgame, are tank busters.
That shouldnt be the case, and is why I would want the skill back. (Of course I'd like pressing it anyways, even if its just lame auto attacks)
So its fair for you to say its useless, but then again, Ive felt that SE has dropped the ball when it comes to tanking in this game.

[PyurBlue]

PLD lost Bulwark due to the buff to Sheltron...

That helps somewhat in dungeons but not really with TB's. Bulwark could also build gauge if you were in tankstance for whatever reason. I'd sometimes use it during the pull for that, or during dunegeons.

and honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others. Usually you would hope rampart was off cooldown and can pair sheltron, even then that was never enough, example being the first Homing Laser at the start of ultima in uwu where you would need apoc also, or if you got cucked in o10s on the debuffs in the latter phase.
Speaking of Bulwark, it was only really worth using on trash packs or for fluff damage like autos, relying on an RNG dependent cool down is just terrible for tankbusters, the skill itself was awful for a 3 minute recast. There is nothing wrong with the current 30% DR skills, there's no need to tamper or tweak with them, they're used to mitigate damage, trying to put fancy bells and ribbons on them is a pointless endeavor.

By the end of SB it Bulwark was essentially a 100% block. I don't remember now if it was actually guaranteed, but it felt like it. You could also pair it with Awareness to get around crits. Either way they didn't need to discard it. They could have kept Sentinel as it was and turned Bulwark into something to cover the long CD or as a reward for dealing with Sentinel's CD. Just making something up off the top of my head, but turn it into 100% block rate that builds a shield with each Block. It would be a somewhat unique cooldown that you use well before you expect an attack and it would be more useful against TB's and help mitigate Sentinel's CD while also letting the latter keep it's high mitigation.