Monk Changes

[Xelphus]

Monk is one of the top damage dealers at the moment, and as has been said in this very thread, is currently seeing a LOT of play right now. It may not be perfect, but it's pretty damn good at the moment.

When I think of jobs that need some TLC, Monk doesn't even crack the top 3. Ninja and Summoner both need rework, and the complexity of the jobs do not match the damage output. The entire role of physical ranged dps is in major trouble right now as many people are looking for reasons to even bring them into high end content (similar to where casters were at the end of heavensward and stormblood). RDM doesn't feel as rewarding as it used to, got two skills that are entirely circumstantial, AND is the 2nd from the bottom DPS. SAM needs some potency buffs and is getting it's shoha reworked (which it needed).

This is before we address the current complaints for Tanks and Healers (which are admittedly both in a decent spot atm).

Doing heavy rework on monk would take away from the resources needed to adjust other jobs that need a LOT more work than Monk currently does.

[Mahrze]

Doing heavy rework on monk would take away from the resources needed to adjust other jobs that need a LOT more work than Monk currently does.

Not to disqualify your previous points but when you go back to this. Its obvious that the devs need more staff and we can go down that rabbit hole, but lets face it: Most jobs don't want to be HW's PLD or SB's MCH. And this is not what MNK players are discussing now, nor have discussed before. This all has a past.

MNK players have not been asking for "OP buffs" (sans the random person who screams for them but I digress) MNKs keep asking for a kit that has better consistency and not feel like a poorly layered cake of exotic flavors. MNK works, and works better than the rest of the jobs, no denying it there. But its a job that gets 1/5 useful skills every expansion for the last 3 and has lost more than it has gained.

And it "feels" worse for most MNKs who've played the job for a while. And with how predictable SE is. I already expect 6.0 to be another expansion where MNK gets 1 useful skill out of 5, and the other 4 being so situational or repeats of what it already has that it'll just be "the usual."

[SpeckledBurd]

Not to disqualify your previous points but when you go back to this. Its obvious that the devs need more staff and we can go down that rabbit hole, but lets face it: Most jobs don't want to be HW's PLD or SB's MCH. And this is not what MNK players are discussing now, nor have discussed before. This all has a past.

MNK players have not been asking for "OP buffs" (sans the random person who screams for them but I digress) MNKs keep asking for a kit that has better consistency and not feel like a poorly layered cake of exotic flavors. MNK works, and works better than the rest of the jobs, no denying it there. But its a job that gets 1/5 useful skills every expansion for the last 3 and has lost more than it has gained.

And it "feels" worse for most MNKs who've played the job for a while. And with how predictable SE is. I already expect 6.0 to be another expansion where MNK gets 1 useful skill out of 5, and the other 4 being so situational or repeats of what it already has that it'll just be "the usual."

Yep.

If you want to know why Monk players still are complaining (And indeed, still have plenty of reason to complain) then you just need to look at basically every thread about Monk that was made between May and 5.05 (and in a lot of cases the beginning of Stormblood and beyond). You can even look at the comments from around 5.05, most of which were along the lines of “well it’s a start but there’s still a ton of problems”. Most of those complaints are still valid complaints about the job and have gone unaddressed for a considerable length of time.

Monk's OP, well great but that doesn't do anything about the problems the job has had on a design level since like A Realm Reborn that have gone unfixed for years.

This bit stood out for me, due to the fact that Dragoon kept Dragonfire Dive AND gained Stardiver, exactly the same AoE except higher potency. Stardiver can only be used under its resource (LoTD), same as Enlightenment. So, why was Howling Fist removed? Because we got Elixir Field? By that logic Stardiver should have replaced DFD if they were trying to streamline jobs equally. Just seems like they wanted to cuck monk some more.

My guess is it's because of their stated fear that Monk would be too hard to play with GL4 (which it isn't) led them to trim it out along with everything else they took. That's probably true of everything they removed barring One-Ilm Punch.

[Ramura_Sono]

Monk is one of the top damage dealers at the moment, and as has been said in this very thread, is currently seeing a LOT of play right now. It may not be perfect, but it's pretty damn good at the moment.

When I think of jobs that need some TLC, Monk doesn't even crack the top 3. Ninja and Summoner both need rework, and the complexity of the jobs do not match the damage output. The entire role of physical ranged dps is in major trouble right now as many people are looking for reasons to even bring them into high end content (similar to where casters were at the end of heavensward and stormblood). RDM doesn't feel as rewarding as it used to, got two skills that are entirely circumstantial, AND is the 2nd from the bottom DPS. SAM needs some potency buffs and is getting it's shoha reworked (which it needed).

This is before we address the current complaints for Tanks and Healers (which are admittedly both in a decent spot atm).

Doing heavy rework on monk would take away from the resources needed to adjust other jobs that need a LOT more work than Monk currently does.

Except they don't? Everything you listed has a cohesive kit and other than ninja and maaaaaybe summoner need nothing but potency buffs.

Ninja got potency buffs recently, but still needs a rework. The buffs are seen as nothing but a bandaid. Are we deciding that since Monk started with bandaids it's no longer in need of a rework?

Also bringing up circumstancial skills other classes have...Have you not seen the skills monks have?

Monk is also the only job that has historically lost skills that were actually used rotationally with nothing to replace them, except the same skill of a different flavor.

Once Monk gets brought back in line it's play numbers will plummet because despite 3 expansions it has never seen any sort of evolution and is still the exact same job it was in ARR.

Monk has never gotten the attention it's needed when it's needed it.

[Kabooa]

My guess is it's because of their stated fear that Monk would be too hard to play with GL4 (which it isn't) led them to trim it out along with everything else they took. That's probably true of everything they removed barring One-Ilm Punch.

While it's not really used in such a manner, Dragonfire Dive is still an engagement tool. In other words it can serve a purpose outside dealing damage.

Howling fist doesn't.

That said, Howling Fist is a clear example of a skill that should have upgraded instead of being removed - Where Howling Fist with 5 chakra morphs into Enlightenment, and then Enlightenment's potency could have been significantly higher to add in some measure of constraint with Chakra instead of "Forbidden the moment you're full"

[SpeckledBurd]

While it's not really used in such a manner, Dragonfire Dive is still an engagement tool. In other words it can serve a purpose outside dealing damage.

Howling fist doesn't.

That said, Howling Fist is a clear example of a skill that should have upgraded instead of being removed - Where Howling Fist with 5 chakra morphs into Enlightenment, and then Enlightenment's potency could have been significantly higher to add in some measure of constraint with Chakra instead of "Forbidden the moment you're full"

Technically Howling fist was our only low level skill that could hit a mob outside of Melee range.

While that works for Samurai's Hissatsu:Senei/Guren, it wouldn't work on Monk. A Samurai knows how much Kenki they'll need when Hissatsu:Senei/Guren is coming up and they build Kenki consistently with every GCD, so they can pause in their Shinten use and just build gauge, and if they're slightly off they won't overflow because there's overhead built into the gauge. Monk's flow of Chakra can do neither of those things. Its inconsistent being behind two layers of RNG and you either have 5 Chakra or you don't when it comes to using a skill. So when approaching the Enlightenment/Howling Fist cooldown a Monk could just be unable to use it because of RNG deciding it doesn't want to cooperate, or they would have to sit on 5 Chakra and miss out on Chakras proccing and miss out on damage.

In theory they could mitigate it by making Enlightenment/Howling Fist always align with Brotherhood, but Brotherhood is party comp dependent (and also RNG) so if it's a Monk and 3 Casters, you may not see the 5 Chakras you need. You could also just get insanely unlucky and not get the Chakras in a physical composition either.

[Kabooa]

Technically Howling fist was our only low level skill that could hit a mob outside of Melee range.

While that works for Samurai's Hissatsu:Senei/Guren, it wouldn't work on Monk. A Samurai knows how much Kenki they'll need when Hissatsu:Senei/Guren is coming up and they build Kenki consistently with every GCD, so they can pause in their Shinten use and just build gauge, and if they're slightly off they won't overflow because there's overhead built into the gauge. Monk's flow of Chakra can do neither of those things. Its inconsistent being behind two layers of RNG and you either have 5 Chakra or you don't when it comes to using a skill. So when approaching the Enlightenment/Howling Fist cooldown a Monk could just be unable to use it because of RNG deciding it doesn't want to cooperate, or they would have to sit on 5 Chakra and miss out on Chakras proccing and miss out on damage.

In theory they could mitigate it by making Enlightenment/Howling Fist always align with Brotherhood, but Brotherhood is party comp dependent (and also RNG) so if it's a Monk and 3 Casters, you may not see the 5 Chakras you need. You could also just get insanely unlucky and not get the Chakras in a physical composition either.

Kinda goes back to Chakra not being as fleshed out as other resources, and all of their skill advancements being Greased Lightning based.

having Six Sided Star instead auto-generating a Chakra would give them more manipulation in this regard (And in this example would be a clear and present gain for the situation at hand - "I need Chakra to use Enlightenment so I don't have to delay the Cooldown")

In this theoretical setup you could have something like

Six Sided Star - Generates Chakra Guaranteed.
Howling Fist - Becomes Enlightenment at 5 Chakra
Anantman - Consumes 5 Chakra to grant Max GL

Deep Meditation II - Chakra now holds up to 7.

If we assign something like a 45 second Anantman cooldown, we also potentially bring back a situational Tornado Kick gain. The Monk then moves through three basic, competing priorities of Enlighten Howling Fist, Anantman -> Tornado Kick, or default Forbidden Chakra.

On a more opinionated note, I kind of think Riddles should be short duration buffs attached to the Fists, and increase the fist cooldown some. Removes some buttons and encourages more fist dancing.

Riddle of X: When changing into Fist of Earth, Fist of Fire, or Fist of Wind, the bonus from this Fist is doubled for 9 seconds.

Which leads into a pretty natural upgrade for it later

Greater Riddle: When Changing into Fist of Earth, Wind, or Fire, the bonus from the previous fist is kept for 9 seconds.

With a few baseline changes to the Fists themselves and separating GL 4 from Riddle of Wind.

Fist of Earth: 10% Damage reduction, gain 50% of the positional bonus when missing a positional.
Fist of Fire: 5% bonus damage
Fist of Wind: 5% bonus movement speed

[Xelphus]

Except they don't? Everything you listed has a cohesive kit and other than ninja and maaaaaybe summoner need nothing but potency buffs.

I'm confused as to how a couple of skills Monk having that are circumstantial prevent it from having a cohesive kit. If that's the case then Black Mage needs to be reworked as well with Scathe, Fire II and Blizzard II basically being completely useless now. Monk's kit as a whole works, and it does a ton of damage. The only 2 DPS that are better off right now are Black Mage and maybe Dragoon.

Ninja got potency buffs recently, but still needs a rework. The buffs are seen as nothing but a bandaid. Are we deciding that since Monk started with bandaids it's no longer in need of a rework?

I don't think I ever said that with the bandaids Ninja was good enough. It still needs lots of work.

Also bringing up circumstancial skills other classes have...Have you not seen the skills monks have?

Most of the DPS have circumstancial skills. Monk still needs less attention that any other Ranged DPS job aside from BLM. I brought up RDM because like MNK it has circumstantial skills but doesn't do remotely close to the same damage.

Monk is also the only job that has historically lost skills that were actually used rotationally with nothing to replace them, except the same skill of a different flavor.

Contagion. Aetherflow (on SMN). Most of Sch's DPS kit. Fire II and Blizz II aren't gone but are now completely obsolete. Deliverance. Unchained. Scourge. Dark Arts. Shield Swipe. The vast majority of MCH's old kit.

Once Monk gets brought back in line it's play numbers will plummet because despite 3 expansions it has never seen any sort of evolution and is still the exact same job it was in ARR.

If Monk does good damage, people will play it. Simple as that. It is one of the most played jobs in the game, and unless SE just completely tanks the job overnight that isn't likely to change soon. There is literally an entire role within the game that some people are considering not bringing anymore.

Monk has never gotten the attention it's needed when it's needed it.

Except that it has. Monk got a solid amount of attention near the end of Stormblood which a ton of people were happy about and saw a ton of play in the final raid tier. A couple odd skills here or there maybe feel weird, but it pales in comparison to some of the job changes of the past (4.0 Warrior for instance).

Monk may need some work. Other jobs need it more.

[SpeckledBurd]

I'm confused as to how a couple of skills Monk having that are circumstantial prevent it from having a cohesive kit. If that's the case then Black Mage needs to be reworked as well with Scathe, Fire II and Blizzard II basically being completely useless now. Monk's kit as a whole works, and it does a ton of damage. The only 2 DPS that are better off right now are Black Mage and maybe Dragoon.

Monk right now and has always had the most overly circumstantial skills in the game by an order of magnitude. Monk is also the only job where the devs consistently tie traits to those skills that are fundamentally useless. Fists of Fire, Wind, and Earth and by extension the two traits Enhanced Fists of Fire and Riddle of Wind, Tornado Kick, Anatman, and Six Sided Star. Are all extremely niche to the point of never being used or outright useless for their intended purpose.

1-2 Circumstantial skills is no where near the problem that Monk has where a 1/3 of its kit is useless and 2/3's of what they get when an expansion drops also being garbage.

Contagion. Aetherflow (on SMN). Most of Sch's DPS kit. Fire II and Blizz II aren't gone but are now completely obsolete. Deliverance. Unchained. Scourge. Dark Arts. Shield Swipe. The vast majority of MCH's old kit.

You know what those jobs also regularly get? New skills that are effective and that they get to use during their rotations or in the course of mitigating/healing a fight, whereas Monk has not seen a truly new rotational skill since Elixir Field and a new GCD we get to use on a regular basis is something we've never gotten before.

Except that it has. Monk got a solid amount of attention near the end of Stormblood which a ton of people were happy about and saw a ton of play in the final raid tier. A couple odd skills here or there maybe feel weird, but it pales in comparison to some of the job changes of the past (4.0 Warrior for instance).

Monk may need some work. Other jobs need it more.

Attention that was so poorly thought out that it produced an entirely new rotation that the devs didn't want us doing. And they undid all of the positive changes at the beginning of Shadowbringers, making Monk grueling to level and play instead of changing the lynchpin of that rotation.

Monk may need some work. Other jobs need it more.

Monk has had these problems for years while other jobs passed it by. I think Monk deserves as much attention as they do.

[Xelphus]

There has always been downtime in fights, and Monk had trouble maintaining or using stacks of GL during the downtime back in 2.0. A LOT of the skills you listed were for those instances. I agree that Anantman has more or less been replaced by the updates to form shift, but it absolutely had uses on release. Fists of Earth isn't great (but neither is any other defensive "stance" on a dps class) but Fists of Fire and Wind are both pretty damn important to you dps, considering FoF gives you a constant 10% damage bonus and Fists of Wind gives a 4th GL stack, both of which are dependent on their respective traits. Six Sided Star is certainly niche, but there are dozens of times where a melee has to peel off a boss to avoid a mechanic and lose a GCD (which is shorter for monk because of GL) and is great for maintaining GL 3 or 4 without having to resort to 3 form shifts or standing still for Anatman.

BLM hasn't gotten a regular GCD skill since FIV. Dragoon didn't get a new GCD this expac either. Bard got Apex Arrow but is hardly exciting atm. RDM got a new "finisher" but nothing else dramatically added to its rotation. SAM had no new GCDs added this expac either. Personally I have always really liked MNK, I just hated the feeling when you lose GL and lo and behold this expac that let me keep GL and move through the course of the fight without disrupting my rhythm.

Monk's main problem in HW was it's lack of utility, so they gave MNK Brotherhood. Since then they have increased the damage of MNK substantially, tweaked it's kit to make it flow very well even if you don't use certain skills regularly (which nearly every DPS has circumstantial skills, even BLM), and now on top of making it super easy to maintain GL, MNK is competing with BLM, a zero utility job, for top dps spot in pretty much every fight. That sounds pretty fantastic to me personally. They have given MNK a ton of attention, attention that has improved the job on an order of magnitude, especially when you consider that MNK had no place in the meta 2 expacs ago, and a rough spot at the beginning of the previous expac. Now groups are pracitcally requiring MNK in their groups because of how much damage it outputs.

So I will say it again: other jobs need more attention than MNK. SAM and NIN mostly, since they occupy the same role and there should be at least some justification to bring them over MNK (which there isn't right now), and then literally every ranged dps not named BLM (which despite having 3 circumstantial skills and 4 completely useless skills, I think is pretty much a perfect class atm). Fix the glaring issues with the jobs that barely anyone wants to play, and then patch up the #1 most played job in the game that does either the most or second most damage in every fight.