Monk Changes

[Mahrze]

I appreciate the ACTUAL insightful response. My main goal is to get my idea out in the open.

Completly ignoring the obviousness that the changes will push monk further over the top before balancing it out. What is your opinion on what i discribe?

Mainly using the idea that my proposal is to extend the monks rotation, picking up on some lost skills in different ways, and displaying the pc's lore based mastery over the class of monk.

Your description really steps too much into DRG territory, as far as extending the combo. Where as the addition of abilities to bring back abilities and link them to the chakra "system" is another thing that is a different can of worms.


MNK has a silly number of layers of "systems" to make it work the way it is. MNK needs an overhaul, not because its weak, but because every time they add things they seem to ignore the basics of MNK and the number of situational/"useless" skills which was supposed to be something they were working to fix since 4.0. And the MNK community overall knows that MNK is still 2.0 MNK with maybe 1 really "new and necessary skill" every expansion.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Your description really steps too much into DRG territory, as far as extending the combo. Where as the addition of abilities to bring back abilities and link them to the chakra "system" is another thing that is a different can of worms.


MNK has a silly number of layers of "systems" to make it work the way it is. MNK needs an overhaul, not because its weak, but because every time they add things they seem to ignore the basics of MNK and the number of situational/"useless" skills which was supposed to be something they were working to fix since 4.0. And the MNK community overall knows that MNK is still 2.0 MNK with maybe 1 really "new and necessary skill" every expansion.

Well, honestly. The combo only extends by one skill per cycle. If you followed it it would be opo opo skill, raptor skill, couril skill, then <dragon> skill.

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

1 to buff u for crit chance increase and 1 to cause more damage. Both to cause a dark chakra at 100%chance if they crit, as to not fall too far behind regular chakra because of the diff ways to generate regular chakra.

The chakra abilities are just there to follow the same template of the normal chakra. And logically, the monk is about balance in all things...so it would make sense for it to be able to harness equilibrium and hit you with a combination of the 2 chakras.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Well, honestly. The combo only extends by one skill per cycle. If you followed it it would be opo opo skill, raptor skill, couril skill, then <dragon> skill.

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

1 to buff u for crit chance increase and 1 to cause more damage. Both to cause a dark chakra at 100%chance if they crit, as to not fall too far behind regular chakra because of the diff ways to generate regular chakra.

The chakra abilities are just there to follow the same template of the normal chakra. And logically, the monk is about balance in all things...so it would make sense for it to be able to harness equilibrium and hit you with a combination of the 2 chakras.

The idea isnt to buff the monk (though that will happen in the beginning, which can be reigned in by minor nerfs till it balances out)

The idea is to evolve the monk. Its still using the same rotation from 2.0 like u stated.basically. it works. Nothing to contest that fact. So why not expand on it with the same idea of what makes the monk work.

A long rotation that never stops, focusing on the chaining of gcd skills of medium damage with the weaving of ogcd in between for small spikes of damage.

What makes the monk show high damage is its constant damage. Not extreme spikes followed by low troughs.

I feel like the change to dragon kick is the culprit to why monk gets the hate it does on the dps chart. Cause it causes more spikes in dps instead of its previous constant.

[Mahrze]

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

This is basically how dragoon works. it does a 1,2,3 and then 50/50 of whichever 4th ability they can use (and yeah, as of now a 5th one, etc.) I understand what you're trying to add. But it steps too much into the things another melee DPS already does. I am not saying your idea is bad, because its not. But it is already too similar to another DPS' gimmick.

The Dark Chakra system is a bit wonky because it already operates on the same thing as the current chakra, you're just adding another resource for 2 new skills to use. And that I think just adds to the issue that Chakra as always had, not needing to have so many "charge levels" since its mostly an artificial gate that limits how MNK plays.

If there would be a form of "Dragon" stance, I'd rather see it as a form that gives free flow to MNK like perfect balance. Almost like a "Fist of Water". But that's just one of the many things that can be done with MNK.

The idea isnt to buff the monk (though that will happen in the beginning, which can be reigned in by minor nerfs till it balances out)

The idea is to evolve the monk. Its still using the same rotation from 2.0 like u stated.basically. it works. Nothing to contest that fact. So why not expand on it with the same idea of what makes the monk work.

A long rotation that never stops, focusing on the chaining of gcd skills of medium damage with the weaving of ogcd in between for small spikes of damage.

What makes the monk show high damage is its constant damage. Not extreme spikes followed by low troughs.

I feel like the change to dragon kick is the culprit to why monk gets the hate it does on the dps chart. Cause it causes more spikes in dps instead of its previous constant.

Like I added, I'd (personally) prefer to see them evolve MNK in a way that really isn't stepping on DRGs Image. I assume they did the same with DRG since early DRG was too similar to MNK imo.


I agree that MNK was always experienced as a slow ramp up but consistent damage with very few spikes, until SB and ShB happened. And being a job who simply keeps the damage rolling is also a good idea, but I (again, personally) don't see the "dragon" form as you present it as a thing that would build MNK in a way that will make it different from DRG or SAM, or even NIN. (Since SAM and NIN are seen by some(yes, horrid weasel word) as jobs that stemmed from MNK design concepts).

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

This is basically how dragoon works. it does a 1,2,3 and then 50/50 of whichever 4th ability they can use (and yeah, as of now a 5th one, etc.) I understand what you're trying to add. But it steps too much into the things another melee DPS already does. I am not saying your idea is bad, because its not. But it is already too similar to another DPS' gimmick.

The Dark Chakra system is a bit wonky because it already operates on the same thing as the current chakra, you're just adding another resource for 2 new skills to use. And that I think just adds to the issue that Chakra as always had, not needing to have so many "charge levels" since its mostly an artificial gate that limits how MNK plays.

If there would be a form of "Dragon" stance, I'd rather see it as a form that gives free flow to MNK like perfect balance. Almost like a "Fist of Water". But that's just one of the many things that can be done with MNK.






Like I added, I'd (personally) prefer to see them evolve MNK in a way that really isn't stepping on DRGs Image. I assume they did the same with DRG since early DRG was too similar to MNK imo.


I agree that MNK was always experienced as a slow ramp up but consistent damage with very few spikes, until SB and ShB happened. And being a job who simply keeps the damage rolling is also a good idea, but I (again, personally) don't see the "dragon" form as you present it as a thing that would build MNK in a way that will make it different from DRG or SAM, or even NIN. (Since SAM and NIN are seen by some(yes, horrid weasel word) as jobs that stemmed from MNK design concepts).

Im not sure im following your comparison to the forms of monk to how dragoon functions.

Monk has always been limited by its forms

Having to be in those forms to apply the forms' skills' additional effects.

Opo opo:
Bootshine gets crit
Dragon kick gets bootshine buff

Raptor:
Twin snakes applies damage buff
True strike....just deals damage

Couril:
Demolish applies Dot
Snap punch....again just damage

The point im geting at is we would then have:

"Dragon":
Skill 1 applies crit buff and any crit generates a dark chakra
Skill 2.......again just damage but any crit generates a dark chakra

With dragoon its 4th skill is generated off of whichever combo finisher u do and then u get ro use its 2nd 4th skill as a 5th combo.

With the dark chakra we would then do this:

5 stacks of dark chakra:
Dark chakra skill 1: single target high dmg dot(maybe)
Dark chakra skill 2: AoE line or circle, maybe some kinda ground dot like bard had with dark fire cracked ground.(again idk)

Then with those in tow:

5 light and 5 dark chakra:
Equilibrium: single target high damage, and just for arguments sake blunt resist down(no reason just is)

[Mahrze]

Im not sure im following your comparison to the forms of monk to how dragoon functions.

DRG has already a similar thing to a form that extends its three step combo to 4 and 5 steps. (Blood of the Dragon and then Lance Mastery I Trait)

DRG, once they reach their 3rd step (Chaos/Full Thrust using Blood of the Dragon) they get a buff with a similar timer as a form to use either Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw as a 4th Step in their combo, which is a very similar thing to a form that MNK already uses. This lets DRG go for a 4th and even a 5th Step (Lance mastery I).

My point is that what you want to give to MNK works too similarly to what DRG already has been doing since heavensward that it doesn't look like something that is really moving MNK forward, just looks like swapping abilities between the two.

I mean, Raiden Thrust and Leaden Fist are already basically the same thing for both those jobs, they are just different gimmicks for "almost" the same result.

Or to put it even simpler. Your idea about a 4th form looks too much like what DRG already does.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

DRG has already a similar thing to a form that extends its three step combo to 4 and 5 steps. (Blood of the Dragon and then Lance Mastery I Trait)

DRG, once they reach their 3rd step (Chaos/Full Thrust using Blood of the Dragon) they get a buff with a similar timer as a form to use either Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw as a 4th Step in their combo, which is a very similar thing to a form that MNK already uses. This lets DRG go for a 4th and even a 5th Step (Lance mastery I).

My point is that what you want to give to MNK works too similarly to what DRG already has been doing since heavensward that it doesn't look like something that is really moving MNK forward, just looks like swapping abilities between the two.

I mean, Raiden Thrust and Leaden Fist are already basically the same thing for both those jobs, they are just different gimmicks for "almost" the same result.

Or to put it even simpler. Your idea about a 4th form looks too much like what DRG already does.

Or maybe the dragoons 4th skills are just copies of what monk has done all along even before hw expansion. What your saying makes no sense. It is inherently a monk style. As all 3 of its form from the very begining have done exactly as i decribed for the dragon form.

All monk does is attack to generate a new form.
Opo opo attack to get raptor---raptor attack to get couril---couril attack to get opo opo

I want to introduce a trait to change the couril swap to opo opo and have it swap to "dragon"

Which then u would dragon attack to get opo opo

Opo opo ->raptor->couril->dragon->opo opo

This has been how monk functions sense ARR.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Or maybe the dragoons 4th skills are just copies of what monk has done all along even before hw expansion. What your saying makes no sense. It is inherently a monk style. As all 3 of its form from the very begining have done exactly as i decribed for the dragon form.

All monk does is attack to generate a new form.
Opo opo attack to get raptor---raptor attack to get couril---couril attack to get opo opo

I want to introduce a trait to change the couril swap to opo opo and have it swap to "dragon"

Which then u would dragon attack to get opo opo

Opo opo ->raptor->couril->dragon->opo opo

This has been how monk functions sense ARR.

There is no, dragon on dragon combo...outside of perfect balance.