Monk Changes

[SpeckledBurd]

Your formatting, grammar and spelling need work. Reading that is a struggle.

That said, I personally think that Monk despite massively overly performing is in just as much of a need of a rework as Summoner and Ninja. The reason being that it's extreme over performance at the moment is a direct result of the developers having a knee-jerk response to player satisfaction and play numbers for the first month of Shadowbringers just because of how terrible it was.

Monk's design is a mess, full of dated design principles that should have been removed last expansion and traits that build upon those dated design principles without fixing their underlying problems, multiple redundant skills for greased lightning management, several useless skills, a gauge whose design is rooted in downtime mitigation without ever being tweaked out of that design, and a playstyle that has only regressed from how it was in A Realm Reborn. The knee jerk changes the devs made in 5.05 didn't solve even a quarter of this, The Riddle of Fire fix was something the devs knew we hated and refused to fix at launch out of sheer stubborness until Monks started setting the forums on fire and the Form Shift change just made Form Shift upkeep GL the same way transpose keeps Enochian up for Black Mage, and making that change invalidated the existence of Riddle of Earth (and the actual purpose of Anatman, rather than how we're using it in the opener). The only buff that was just 100% a buff was making Mantra's range bigger than a thimble. But the problems players had with the Fist Stances even existing, the playstyle never changing, the way Brotherhood constrains Monk to certain party compositions to be effective, the RNG on RNG nature of Deep Meditation, the All or Nothing nature of Chakra, and the fact that the job still hasn't evolved 3 expansions in are all still major problems.

Yes, Monk does need to see its personal damage nerfed down to be below Samurai's or have everything brought up to its level, but Monk being the second most highly played job right now is an aberration and the moment that its brought back in line it's going to be at the back of the pack once again. The fact that it's performing so well right now and is seeing the most use it has been in the entire time that I've played the game is completely in spite of the way its kit is put together, not because it's a shining star of the game's design.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Your formatting, grammar and spelling need work. Reading that is a struggle.

That said, I personally think that Monk despite massively overly performing is in just as much of a need of a rework as Summoner and Ninja. The reason being that it's extreme over performance at the moment is a direct result of the developers having a knee-jerk response to player satisfaction and play numbers for the first month of the game.

Monk's design is a mess, full of dated design principles that should have been removed last expansion and traits that build upon those dated design principles without fixing their underlying problems, multiple redundant skills for greased lightning management, several useless skills, a gauge whose design is rooted in downtime mitigation without ever being tweaked out of that design, and a playstyle that has only regressed from how it was in A Realm Reborn. The fact that it's performing so well right now is completely in spite of the way its kit is put together, not because it's a shining star of game design.

Yes, Monk does need to see its personal damage nerfed down to be below Samurai's or have everything brought up to its level, but Monk being the second most highly played job right now is an aberration and the moment that its brought back in line it's going to be at the back of the pack once again.

Sorry for the formating/ grammar and such, my first post, and typed out in a ranting fashion. Overall, i believe the monks core kit is fine. Everything lvl 50 and below works as it should. Its the stuff after arr thats just been tossed in there with no idea what they should do with it.

I believe bringing the other classes up instead of nerfing down is a more productive direction. It wont incur the wrath of the forums amd everyone is then happy, except of corse those who just refuse to be.

Its almost like the origional designer knew what they were doing, and then it just got passed off to someone else, who had no idea.

[Mahrze]

Your formatting, grammar and spelling need work. Reading that is a struggle.

That said, I personally think that Monk despite massively overly performing is in just as much of a need of a rework as Summoner and Ninja. The reason being that it's extreme over performance at the moment is a direct result of the developers having a knee-jerk response to player satisfaction and play numbers for the first month of Shadowbringers just because of how terrible it was.

Monk's design is a mess, full of dated design principles that should have been removed last expansion and traits that build upon those dated design principles without fixing their underlying problems, multiple redundant skills for greased lightning management, several useless skills, a gauge whose design is rooted in downtime mitigation without ever being tweaked out of that design, and a playstyle that has only regressed from how it was in A Realm Reborn. The knee jerk changes the devs made in 5.05 didn't solve even a quarter of this, The Riddle of Fire fix was something the devs knew we hated and refused to fix at launch out of sheer stubborness until Monks started setting the forums on fire and the Form Shift change just made Form Shift upkeep GL the same way transpose keeps Enochian up for Black Mage, and making that change invalidated the existence of Riddle of Earth (and the actual purpose of Anatman, rather than how we're using it in the opener). The only buff that was just 100% a buff was making Mantra's range bigger than a thimble. But the problems players had with the Fist Stances even existing, the playstyle never changing, the way Brotherhood constrains Monk to certain party compositions to be effective, the RNG on RNG nature of Deep Meditation, the All or Nothing nature of Chakra, and the fact that the job still hasn't evolved 3 expansions in are all still major problems.

Yes, Monk does need to see its personal damage nerfed down to be below Samurai's or have everything brought up to its level, but Monk being the second most highly played job right now is an aberration and the moment that its brought back in line it's going to be at the back of the pack once again. The fact that it's performing so well right now and is seeing the most use it has been in the entire time that I've played the game is completely in spite of the way its kit is put together, not because it's a shining star of the game's design.

As much as I agree with and I don't think there really should be a priority list on "what actually needs fixing". It's sad that we've reminded them since early SB that whatever they give MNK doesn't work and they just keep themselves to the Greased Lightning Crutch/Tax.


A lot of these "buffs" were mostly QoL changes that reflect how strong MNK is in terms of what it has, but that isn't necessarily what the issue of MNK is or ever was. MNKs issue is that it gets abilities every expansion and at best, 1 out of 5 on every expansion is an actual "addition".

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

As much as I agree with and I don't think there really should be a priority list on "what actually needs fixing". It's sad that we've reminded them since early SB that whatever they give MNK doesn't work and they just keep themselves to the Greased Lightning Crutch/Tax.


A lot of these "buffs" were mostly QoL changes that reflect how strong MNK is in terms of what it has, but that isn't necessarily what the issue of MNK is or ever was. MNKs issue is that it gets abilities every expansion and at best, 1 out of 5 on every expansion is an actual "addition".

I appreciate the ACTUAL insightful response. My main goal is to get my idea out in the open.

Completly ignoring the obviousness that the changes will push monk further over the top before balancing it out. What is your opinion on what i discribe?

Mainly using the idea that my proposal is to extend the monks rotation, picking up on some lost skills in different ways, and displaying the pc's lore based mastery over the class of monk.

[Mahrze]

I appreciate the ACTUAL insightful response. My main goal is to get my idea out in the open.

Completly ignoring the obviousness that the changes will push monk further over the top before balancing it out. What is your opinion on what i discribe?

Mainly using the idea that my proposal is to extend the monks rotation, picking up on some lost skills in different ways, and displaying the pc's lore based mastery over the class of monk.

Your description really steps too much into DRG territory, as far as extending the combo. Where as the addition of abilities to bring back abilities and link them to the chakra "system" is another thing that is a different can of worms.


MNK has a silly number of layers of "systems" to make it work the way it is. MNK needs an overhaul, not because its weak, but because every time they add things they seem to ignore the basics of MNK and the number of situational/"useless" skills which was supposed to be something they were working to fix since 4.0. And the MNK community overall knows that MNK is still 2.0 MNK with maybe 1 really "new and necessary skill" every expansion.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Your description really steps too much into DRG territory, as far as extending the combo. Where as the addition of abilities to bring back abilities and link them to the chakra "system" is another thing that is a different can of worms.


MNK has a silly number of layers of "systems" to make it work the way it is. MNK needs an overhaul, not because its weak, but because every time they add things they seem to ignore the basics of MNK and the number of situational/"useless" skills which was supposed to be something they were working to fix since 4.0. And the MNK community overall knows that MNK is still 2.0 MNK with maybe 1 really "new and necessary skill" every expansion.

Well, honestly. The combo only extends by one skill per cycle. If you followed it it would be opo opo skill, raptor skill, couril skill, then <dragon> skill.

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

1 to buff u for crit chance increase and 1 to cause more damage. Both to cause a dark chakra at 100%chance if they crit, as to not fall too far behind regular chakra because of the diff ways to generate regular chakra.

The chakra abilities are just there to follow the same template of the normal chakra. And logically, the monk is about balance in all things...so it would make sense for it to be able to harness equilibrium and hit you with a combination of the 2 chakras.

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

Well, honestly. The combo only extends by one skill per cycle. If you followed it it would be opo opo skill, raptor skill, couril skill, then <dragon> skill.

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

1 to buff u for crit chance increase and 1 to cause more damage. Both to cause a dark chakra at 100%chance if they crit, as to not fall too far behind regular chakra because of the diff ways to generate regular chakra.

The chakra abilities are just there to follow the same template of the normal chakra. And logically, the monk is about balance in all things...so it would make sense for it to be able to harness equilibrium and hit you with a combination of the 2 chakras.

The idea isnt to buff the monk (though that will happen in the beginning, which can be reigned in by minor nerfs till it balances out)

The idea is to evolve the monk. Its still using the same rotation from 2.0 like u stated.basically. it works. Nothing to contest that fact. So why not expand on it with the same idea of what makes the monk work.

A long rotation that never stops, focusing on the chaining of gcd skills of medium damage with the weaving of ogcd in between for small spikes of damage.

What makes the monk show high damage is its constant damage. Not extreme spikes followed by low troughs.

I feel like the change to dragon kick is the culprit to why monk gets the hate it does on the dps chart. Cause it causes more spikes in dps instead of its previous constant.

[Mahrze]

All the teirs of skills have 2 variants. 1 for damage and 1 for some kind of buff or debuff(dot included). Which is why i extend the same idea to the <dragon> form tier aswell.

This is basically how dragoon works. it does a 1,2,3 and then 50/50 of whichever 4th ability they can use (and yeah, as of now a 5th one, etc.) I understand what you're trying to add. But it steps too much into the things another melee DPS already does. I am not saying your idea is bad, because its not. But it is already too similar to another DPS' gimmick.

The Dark Chakra system is a bit wonky because it already operates on the same thing as the current chakra, you're just adding another resource for 2 new skills to use. And that I think just adds to the issue that Chakra as always had, not needing to have so many "charge levels" since its mostly an artificial gate that limits how MNK plays.

If there would be a form of "Dragon" stance, I'd rather see it as a form that gives free flow to MNK like perfect balance. Almost like a "Fist of Water". But that's just one of the many things that can be done with MNK.

The idea isnt to buff the monk (though that will happen in the beginning, which can be reigned in by minor nerfs till it balances out)

The idea is to evolve the monk. Its still using the same rotation from 2.0 like u stated.basically. it works. Nothing to contest that fact. So why not expand on it with the same idea of what makes the monk work.

A long rotation that never stops, focusing on the chaining of gcd skills of medium damage with the weaving of ogcd in between for small spikes of damage.

What makes the monk show high damage is its constant damage. Not extreme spikes followed by low troughs.

I feel like the change to dragon kick is the culprit to why monk gets the hate it does on the dps chart. Cause it causes more spikes in dps instead of its previous constant.

Like I added, I'd (personally) prefer to see them evolve MNK in a way that really isn't stepping on DRGs Image. I assume they did the same with DRG since early DRG was too similar to MNK imo.


I agree that MNK was always experienced as a slow ramp up but consistent damage with very few spikes, until SB and ShB happened. And being a job who simply keeps the damage rolling is also a good idea, but I (again, personally) don't see the "dragon" form as you present it as a thing that would build MNK in a way that will make it different from DRG or SAM, or even NIN. (Since SAM and NIN are seen by some(yes, horrid weasel word) as jobs that stemmed from MNK design concepts).

[Sonya_Nillefrant]

This is basically how dragoon works. it does a 1,2,3 and then 50/50 of whichever 4th ability they can use (and yeah, as of now a 5th one, etc.) I understand what you're trying to add. But it steps too much into the things another melee DPS already does. I am not saying your idea is bad, because its not. But it is already too similar to another DPS' gimmick.

The Dark Chakra system is a bit wonky because it already operates on the same thing as the current chakra, you're just adding another resource for 2 new skills to use. And that I think just adds to the issue that Chakra as always had, not needing to have so many "charge levels" since its mostly an artificial gate that limits how MNK plays.

If there would be a form of "Dragon" stance, I'd rather see it as a form that gives free flow to MNK like perfect balance. Almost like a "Fist of Water". But that's just one of the many things that can be done with MNK.






Like I added, I'd (personally) prefer to see them evolve MNK in a way that really isn't stepping on DRGs Image. I assume they did the same with DRG since early DRG was too similar to MNK imo.


I agree that MNK was always experienced as a slow ramp up but consistent damage with very few spikes, until SB and ShB happened. And being a job who simply keeps the damage rolling is also a good idea, but I (again, personally) don't see the "dragon" form as you present it as a thing that would build MNK in a way that will make it different from DRG or SAM, or even NIN. (Since SAM and NIN are seen by some(yes, horrid weasel word) as jobs that stemmed from MNK design concepts).

Im not sure im following your comparison to the forms of monk to how dragoon functions.

Monk has always been limited by its forms

Having to be in those forms to apply the forms' skills' additional effects.

Opo opo:
Bootshine gets crit
Dragon kick gets bootshine buff

Raptor:
Twin snakes applies damage buff
True strike....just deals damage

Couril:
Demolish applies Dot
Snap punch....again just damage

The point im geting at is we would then have:

"Dragon":
Skill 1 applies crit buff and any crit generates a dark chakra
Skill 2.......again just damage but any crit generates a dark chakra

With dragoon its 4th skill is generated off of whichever combo finisher u do and then u get ro use its 2nd 4th skill as a 5th combo.

With the dark chakra we would then do this:

5 stacks of dark chakra:
Dark chakra skill 1: single target high dmg dot(maybe)
Dark chakra skill 2: AoE line or circle, maybe some kinda ground dot like bard had with dark fire cracked ground.(again idk)

Then with those in tow:

5 light and 5 dark chakra:
Equilibrium: single target high damage, and just for arguments sake blunt resist down(no reason just is)