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  1. #21
    Player
    Gemina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Dravania
    Posts
    5,778
    Character
    Gemina Lunarian
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    My issue with Kaiten isn't even the potential multiple misuses. Though I won't deny that a misused Kaiten basically costs you two gcds, and that stings. As was pointed out earlier, Kaiten will ALWAYS be paired with iaijutsu. This makes iaijutsu rely on multiple resources, and few things in this game piss me off more than skills that require multiple resources to use. Guren and Senei suffer the same as well. As does Third Eye.

    Many things can be done to trim SAMs hedges that is for sure.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player
    SpeckledBurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    708
    Character
    K'ahli K'uhla'tor
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz View Post
    Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.
    I wouldn't be opposed to it. Right now Kenki Mastery 1 is frankly really low impact and results in you being starved for using Gyoten when you'd normally want to use a gap closer and not always being able to Kaiten your Iaijutsu. The problem is Kenki Mastery 2 is designed around having Shinten as a dump, so it'd either create bad habits where you'd Kaiten combo finishers, waste gauge, or they'd have to move Shinten down to 52 and make Samurai super busted at those levels (not that the devs care about low level job functionality).

    The alternative would be to add a trait at level 52 when you get Kenki mastery 2 called "Enhanced Iaijutsu" that adds the Kenki cost to Iaijutsu in exchange for boosting the potency of all the Kenki actions. That ends up being a slight nerf to Samurai at 50-61, but again the devs don't balance around Job feel or damage output at anything but the top level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemina View Post
    My issue with Kaiten isn't even the potential multiple misuses. Though I won't deny that a misused Kaiten basically costs you two gcds, and that stings. As was pointed out earlier, Kaiten will ALWAYS be paired with iaijutsu. This makes iaijutsu rely on multiple resources, and few things in this game piss me off more than skills that require multiple resources to use. Guren and Senei suffer the same as well. As does Third Eye.

    Many things can be done to trim SAMs hedges that is for sure.
    I hadn't considered it before now because Samurai as a job has basically nothing in the way of oGCDs to weave, but this exact interaction was one of the things I hated so much about Power Surge on Dragoon in Heavensward. You literally just used it on every other Jump and there was no more thought to it than that, and they changed it just by increasing the potency of Jump by 50 which evened out. So just folding the cost of Kaiten onto Iaijutsu just saves a button press and doesn't buff the job or effect the kenki economy in any way, it's a good change.
    (0)
    Last edited by SpeckledBurd; 10-08-2019 at 12:20 PM.

  3. #23
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,834
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd View Post
    I hadn't considered it before now because Samurai as a job has basically nothing in the way of oGCDs to weave, but this exact interaction was one of the things I hated so much about Power Surge on Dragoon in Heavensward. You literally just used it on every other Jump and there was no more thought to it than that, and they changed it just by increasing the potency of Jump by 50 which evened out. So just folding the cost of Kaiten onto Iaijutsu just saves a button press and doesn't buff the job or effect the kenki economy in any way, it's a good change.
    The only way to make a mistake when using Power Surge, however, was to outright forget it exists. That's not quite the case for Kaiten. Heck, Kaiten is more like Geirskogul back in Heavensward, when it came at cost of Blood of the Dragon duration, than it is to Power Surge; it's a shared-resource interaction -- an obligatory one, but an interaction nonetheless that must be accounted for in advance.

    And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

    If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

    :: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.
    (3)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 10-08-2019 at 12:40 PM.

  4. 10-08-2019 12:48 PM

  5. #24
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,834
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsien View Post
    I don't understand how you can double-use Kaiten when this game gives you a ton of buffer for oGCDs. There is never a reason to mash it, making the entire initial premise of the thread irrelevant. That said, of the proposed solutions, the only one that works without further damaging the job is simply the "goes on CD after the buff is consumed" idea someone had.
    That wouldn't work either, though. It'd offer just as much chance to override the existing Kaiten buff while also giving you an overly long CD to prevent it from being used within a GCD of the last (e.g. Midare, combo-finisher, Higanbana).

    You could easily fix the issue by making...
    • Kaiten's CD refresh when the buff is consumed, or
    • Making Kaiten itself unavailable when and only when the buff is already up (even more intuitive).
    (1)

  6. 10-08-2019 04:12 PM

  7. #25
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,834
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsien View Post
    What do you mean "That wouldn't work." The second bullet is literally what I said. When it keeps the 1 sec CD, you can still get it without clipping.
    Goes ON cooldown after the buff is consumed =/= goes OFF cooldown after the buff is consumed. I'm not seeing how you could possibly be conflating the two.

    What you mentioned, "goes on CD after the buff is consumed" = Has no cooldown, consuming 20 Kenki for each extra time you spam the key, even within the single second and once the buff is consumed by the weaponskill, you can't use Kaiten again until at least late enough into the oGCD gap that it'd cause clipping (1 second later, since you can't queue it, nor does it recharge during the weaponskill animation itself or the prior oGCD gap).

    Maybe this is a "I could care less" thing where you're going to tell me that opposites, of which only one is a logical fit, are effectively the exact same thing?
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 10-08-2019 at 05:59 PM.

  8. #26
    Player
    SpeckledBurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    708
    Character
    K'ahli K'uhla'tor
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsien View Post
    SAM is a 40+ Action-Per-Minute class with half of those actions being oGCDs. You are simply wrong.
    Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

    Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

    If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

    :: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
    (0)

  9. #27
    Player
    Eliadil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    131
    Character
    Adrila Messor
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Tbh, the discussion about Kaiten shouldn't be that much of a concern. Indeed, making it unavailable while the buff is still active would be neat, but Kaiten is by far one of the smallest issue we have with the current Samuraï. If you wanna talk about useless skills, just look at the famous Kaeshi Higanbana. Or even the whole Tsubame thing that made our rotation really akward. (Either make it an oGCD or make it a weaponskill, I don't understand why some class like MCH or Gunbreaker have so much weaponskill with a high cooldown while samuraï on the other side is stuck with an ability that triggers a GCD, especially one that must be used right after a Iaijutsu)

    Tbh, I'd say that if we're talking about kenki, we might need to look at Shinten or Ikishôten and not Kaiten...

    I'm one of those that would love to see the old Hagakure back, but I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Ikishôten isn't a bad ability tbh, but unlike old Hagakure, it doesn't synergize with Tsubame, like at all... And Shinten spamming wasn't that bad... At least in terms of dps gain. (Which I believe with the 5.0 Midare buff Shinten spamming wouldn't be worth it anyway, but maybe I'm wrong, I'm bad with numbers)

    Anyway, all of that was to say that Kaiten, while needing some attention, isn't the most urgent thing to look out for Samuraï's kit. Preventing the use of Kaiten if the buff is already active would solve the issue of pressing it twice. Dragoons already have that with Blood of the Dragon, when they enter the Life state. So why not Sam ? Or will it make the class too strong ? Like how they nerfed Senei after the media tour ?
    (1)
    Still not sure if Samurai's a tank who forgot that aggro was a thing or a dps that's way too much into it.

  10. #28
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd View Post
    Yeah.

    Never hit that slope in this game.

    *looks at Tanks*
    (3)

  11. #29
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,834
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd View Post
    Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

    Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
    Anyone who has played Heavensward Monk at a high level should know that concern is quite warranted.

    Or... you know... ever played a tank...
    (1)

  12. #30
    Player
    Senn77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    5
    Character
    Senn Sual
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 76
    The only way to make a mistake when using Power Surge, however, was to outright forget it exists. That's not quite the case for Kaiten. Heck, Kaiten is more like Geirskogul back in Heavensward, when it came at cost of Blood of the Dragon duration, than it is to Power Surge; it's a shared-resource interaction -- an obligatory one, but an interaction nonetheless that must be accounted for in advance.

    And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

    If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

    :: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.
    This. I don't wanna be at monk spot right now. Thanks.
    (0)
    Last edited by Senn77; 10-09-2019 at 08:08 PM.

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