Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Yes, i know that Balance and ability to clear are mostly unrelated, i.e. all jobs could be able to clear and be balanced, all jobs could be able to clear and be unbalanced, neither jobs could be able to clear and be balanced/unbalanced (though i guess content difficulty would be unbalanced in this case), and there could be a case where only some jobs would be able to clear and not other, but with current dps requirements for SE to screw up that badly there'd need to be a dps job doing literally 0 dps, thought i think it could still be able to clear?

It's already screwed up.
If you have a ranged in your composition, the 1% bonus to all stats is applied to the group.
But this 1% is not even enough to justify the poor rDPS from the ranged, it's actually better to build a MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM group, the BLM replacing the ranged could miss many casts it would still bring a better rDPS.

Remember that Ultimate is coming, SE can either set a tight DPS check or not in both cases:

Relaxed DPS Check:
-Comp without 1+ DPS Pantheon will be able to clear
-Comp with DPS Pantheon will have a easy time


Tight DPS Check:
-Comp without 1+ DPS Pantheon might not be able to clear
-Comp with 2+ DPS Pantheon will have a hard time

If our comp replaced RDM with BLM and DNC with DRG we would have 4k additionnal DPS, for example.

Yep, current state is every job can clear and they're very unbalanced, i'm not the one saying it's fine ^_^

-All dps difference between role should be within (party dps × 1%)
-All dps difference inside the role should be between 3% to 8%
-Pure dps pdps AND rdps should be higner on normal level play
However synergy job should have higher rdps at optimal playing (where you need to alligned 8 people buff and burst) this should only be able to accomplice by having more pure dps than synergy in the party, since pure benefit from synergy more

Just my opinion

Originally Posted by CKNovel

Is it impossible to clear with X jobs or X comps?
No, you can clear with every 2 Tank / 2 Healers / 4 DPS comp

The problem is that some comps using BLM, MNK, DRG, NIN and/or SAM will have a much easier time clearing content.
Ranged DPS, SMN and RDM are taxed for utility/mobility that doesn't lives up to the cost.

The other problem is that a bad MNK, BLM, DRG will do as much DPS as a ranged DPS/RDM/SMN, not rewarding their skill and job optimisation.

You have the argument that since all jobs can clear so nobody should care, that the tax is deserved.
And you have the argument that ranged/SMN/RDM's effort should be rewarded as much as any melee effort.

For example about a "random" (One of the worst, I have to admit) FFLog Report on E4S:
Machinist - 71th percentile - 12.678 rDPS
Black Mage - 21th Percentile - 12.325 rDPS
Monk - 13th Percentile - 12.510 rDPS
Dragoon - 13th Percentile - 12.256 rDPS

In other words, if their Black mage was a SMN/RDM or their MNK/DRG was a SAM/NIN they wouldn't have cleared E4S.
Jobs DPS disparity is so big that if you can't do the mechanics right, shifting your comp to the highest DPS job becomes a pass for the clear.

It's still crazy to me that 21st percentile on BLM and 13th on drg/nin are 12.3, 12.5, and 12.2k rDPS. Each fight is different of course but man those top 3 can put up some numbers no matter how poorly you play them.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Meanwhile, DNC has to be around 90th percentile to hit 12.3k rDPS (when looking at averages for All Bosses - on mobile so didn’t dig deeper into separate fight values for it). It’s mind-boggling how far behind it it compared to the top dogs.

Yeah there's no doubt that clearing savage on meta jobs right now is definitely raiding on easy mode. The level of mastery required for the fight and the job you play is just significantly lower. Can you imagine if that 71st percentile MCH was grey and the other three were nearly purple? That log would've looked like a hard carry and they would've cleared so much more easily.

Originally Posted by Lastelli

It's even easier thant that. Set a benchmark for a role and balance jobs belonging to that role to be as close to that benchmark possible. A reasonable benchmark would be, in my opinion, the following (in terms of rdps):
Melee: 14k
Casters: 13.5k
Ranged: 13k.

This ensures that a standard comp with 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged is the optimal one.
The absurd thing is that right now they're talking about how sam can make the most out of party buffs (we're talking about a 200-300 dps advantage here) when we have jobs with almost 2k rdps difference.

A whole 1k penalty for the Ranged DPS huh?

I don't think everyone's going to agree with that one.

Originally Posted by Lastelli

It's even easier thant that. Set a benchmark for a role and balance jobs belonging to that role to be as close to that benchmark possible. A reasonable benchmark would be, in my opinion, the following (in terms of rdps):
Melee: 14k
Casters: 13.5k
Ranged: 13k.

This ensures that a standard comp with 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged is the optimal one.
The absurd thing is that right now they're talking about how sam can make the most out of party buffs (we're talking about a 200-300 dps advantage here) when we have jobs with almost 2k rdps difference.

Why does 2 melee need to be apart of the optimal comp, being in melee range isn’t that much more risky than having cast times especially with 2 true north charges on a 45sec CD

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Couple simple reasons.

1st fight design. Ranged physical can fill amy role, but the game definately began with 2 melee 2 ranged as the ideal comp, this is particularily evident when you look at diagrams from before release.

2nd was how the game was originally intended. (MNK, DRG, BRD BLM) SMN and NIN were released later.

3rd class role distribution. As time went on ranged split into 2 class roles, magical and physical. This was in part because thw ranged role was inflated, and in part because of the distinctive differences that developed post hw casting time wise.

4th again role distribution. Currently there is two tank slots:4 tanks, 2 healer slots:3 healers, 2 melee slots 4 melee. 1 rng phys: 3 ranged and 1rng caster: 3 casters.

This is in part why many people guess that the next big expansion will add another healer and maybe a new melee will follow later (side note my money is on a melee beastmaster hinted by ranjits combat style. Could be totally wrong tho). Currently melee needs the second spot more than either ranged by a small margin of class choice value options.

These points are all silly, this game is vastly different than it once was and, we don’t need to look back at what was to determine how things should be. (Remember casting ranged physical dps) if we go back to HW, majority of that expansion had Caster Dps stronger than any other role until creator came where ranged got over buffed which they didn’t like, than Caster Dps returned to being the strongest role on average for majority of SB with RDM being the outlier until alphascape where it was closer to DRG and SMN and BLM were at the top.

If anything, the past tells me that Casting DPS should in theory be the groups source of full damage but that’s not how balancing works and we can’t look at past metas in a vacuum. 2 range 2 melee was how it was in arr because that’s how many there were at the time. Those jobs were also strong too for their time as well. Limit break also existed and groups valued it a lot then too