Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Once again, the very topic of the thread is concerning the state of class balance and to offer suggestions to the developers to address that. Not any other irrelevant hypothetical factors such as differences in gear or differences in mistakes. The moment those other factors are brought in, there becomes too many variables to make any accurate comparisons with. But I'm pretty sure you know this, and you knew exactly what you were doing by bringing those up.

And in the grand scheme of the class balance, and once again with every other factor remaining the same (otherwise direct comparisons cannot be made), we cannot absolutely say that skill level is the only major factor in clear rates anymore. Especially now that the topic concerns half of the DPS classes, rather than issues with two or three classes split across different roles as they were in the past.

Originally Posted by Kabooa

More mistakes than who?

If we had a different party comp, would we have made those mistakes?

Does gear not also cover mistakes?

What's the arbitrary amount of mistakes a party should be allowed to recover from, regardless of composition or performance?

Are certain jobs more prone to mistakes than others?

Are we to balance jobs around how many mistakes they should be able to make?

Is a mistake only death?

How much should each job be able to contribute in recovering from the mistake?

None of these questions are relevant to the point Saito brought up. But I’m sure you know that.

If you had been on RDM over BLM, and if your team had performed exactly as they had in your clear (performing with the same mistakes: deaths, damage downs, rotational errors), you would not have cleared. If you had been a 55th percentile RDM, you would not have cleared. Currently, a 50th percentile BLM sits at 13,175 rDPS for E4S. A 50th percentile RDM sits over 1,000 rDPS below that at 12,073. Up that just a teeny bit for a 55th percentile.

The entire point of bringing this up is that some jobs and some compositions allow for things like multiple deaths, damage downs, and rotational errors; and others simply do not. Sure, better gear can also mitigate and provide wiggle room, but not as much as the job disparity we currently have can.

Originally Posted by Kabooa

More mistakes than who?

The same group but with you as RDM.

If we had a different party comp, would we have made those mistakes?

Nope. You being RDM would have made the healers keep the DRG alive through Force > Geo > Voice. It would have made the healer not get oneshotted by Earthen Fury, and it would have saved the tank from getting oneshotted by Force of the Land. You're so right.

Does gear not also cover mistakes?

Yes, but I don't have to re-learn an entirely new rotation (to the degree of learning an entirely new job) just because I geared up.

What's the arbitrary amount of mistakes a party should be allowed to recover from, regardless of composition or performance?

3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998

Are certain jobs more prone to mistakes than others?

Yes.

Are we to balance jobs around how many mistakes they should be able to make?

No, but the threshold between "death" and "wipe" diminishes the weaker a job is.

Is a mistake only death?

No.

How much should each job be able to contribute in recovering from the mistake?

Enough so that being a member of the big five or not doesn't make or break an enrage pull.

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... Are you being willfully obtuse now or did you just not bother to actually read my post? The lower tier is irrelevant because the data provided isn't an accurate representation of the jobs' performance. You don't balance around a 20% or 50% Black Mage because that percentile range means they have made several mistakes either rotationally or mechanically. You balance at the top to remove such variables as it paints a more accurate picture. I really don't know how to dumb this down further for you.

I didn't say anything about 20% or 50% percentiles. I asked if whether that was before or after you inflated the disparity by 20-50%

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Tell you what. If you can explain to us what justification there is for Black Mage to pull nearly two thousand more rDPS than Red Mage or Dragoon to be a thousand above Bard, I'll admit this is all hogwash and we're overreacting.

"Nearly 2000" is an inflation of 20%. And 50% above the 1000 dps difference you see in lower percentiles.

Make sense now?

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And why are they taking them? Because evidence shows they are far superior to their counterparts. Optimized groups didn't pick those jobs out of a hat and decide to only play them. They test which jobs perform the best and adjust accordingly. You're essentially saying the current big three are only strong because speed killers run with them. That's putting the cart before the horse since it ignores why they chose those jobs.

That's not what I said at all, actually. I asked if you are really going to claim that them being predominantly found in optimization kills has no bearing whatsoever on the statistics.

And I'm the strawman lol

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Fact: BLM is op.

The NIN calling the BLM op

:lulz:

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I didn't say anything about 20% or 50% percentiles. I asked if whether that was before or after you inflated the disparity by 20-50%

"Nearly 2000" is an inflation of 20%. And 50% above the 1000 dps difference you see in lower percentiles.
Make sense now?

No, 1,700 is 85% of 2,000. That's an inflation of 15%. Stop inflating your numbers.

Let's not even get into what "nearly" means, since that reduces the inflation even more depending on if the significant figure in question can be decided to be in the hundreds (it should, since the tens place and the ones place are both 0).

That's not what I said at all, actually. I asked if you are really going to claim that them being predominantly found in optimization kills has no bearing whatsoever on the statistics.

Bearing on the statistics how? Making a claim their dps is higher in general because they're played in better comps? rDPS accounts for that and BLM's rDPS actually suffers when it's in better comps because it gives nothing and only takes.

The NIN calling the BLM op

:lulz:

Says the Warrior. :lulz: