Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Unless.. (drumroll)

You already have a monk.

I would like to see the comparison between a 4 monk comp and a proper comp, though.

I mean if you have a monk then you can switch to black mage or dragoon or really any of the upper half dps jobs.

Originally Posted by Dogempire

I mean if you have a monk then you can switch to black mage or dragoon or really any of the upper half dps jobs.

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

what exactly do you think this means ? i don't mean this in a mocking way, but it sounds like you try to say that part of the reason the high up jobs are high up is because they get buffs, they get cards, brotherhood, eye of the dragon or get to be the dance partner. Because if thats what you mean (and i don't know how to read it otherwise) than please be aware that fflogs changed their metrics. If you do 13k dps and than get buffed for 2k by a dancer and cards you will end up at 15k dps on the parser, however when uploading to fflogs the 2k you got buffed for will get deducted right away so you still get a 13k dps parse even if during the fight it showed you at 15k

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

Uhm, dude, we literally have a red mage, a dancer, and a machinist in my group, literally 3 of the bottom of the barrel dps jobs, not to mention that we have an AST as one of our healers, I don't care if they play what they want instead of one of the more overtuned jobs. You seem to have some problems judging by your post and I hope you can work through them.

My point is that it would be much easier to beat dps requirements if the jobs were, you know, balanced? Like, 80th percentile machinist isn't equivalent to a 40th percentile monk?

Also buffing black mages with your own raid buffs only increases your own rdps and therefore your parse percentile, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Akiudo

what exactly do you think this means ? i don't mean this in a mocking way, but it sounds like you try to say that part of the reason the high up jobs are high up is because they get buffs, they get cards, brotherhood, eye of the dragon or get to be the dance partner. Because if thats what you mean (and i don't know how to read it otherwise) than please be aware that fflogs changed their metrics. If you do 13k dps and than get buffed for 2k by a dancer and cards you will end up at 15k dps on the parser, however when uploading to fflogs the 2k you got buffed for will get deducted right away so you still get a 13k dps parse even if during the fight it showed you at 15k

Yes, of course. It's not rocket science. The thing is, it's basically always been that way. Support jobs have always done less raw damage than damage dealing jobs. Only now it's a "problem" because it's more apparent, or something.

So the only solution is to get rid of support jobs and just have every DD at 15k DPS (or whatever arbitrary number you want to input). You can't have support jobs deal as much damage as raw dps jobs, because then they would boost each other and exclude the raw dps jobs eventually. Even so, if all the jobs then do more base DPS, SE simply designs bosses to have more HP. It's a horizontal shift that doesn't actually grow into anything new or interesting.

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Uhm, dude, we literally have a red mage, a dancer, and a machinist in my group, literally 3 of the bottom of the barrel dps jobs, not to mention that we have an AST as one of our healers, I don't care if they play what they want instead of one of the more overtuned jobs. You seem to have some problems judging by your post and I hope you can work through them.

My point is that it would be much easier to beat dps requirements if the jobs were, you know, balanced? Like, 80th percentile machinist isn't equivalent to a 40th percentile monk?

Also buffing black mages with your own raid buffs only increases your own rdps and therefore your parse percentile, not the other way around.

I mean, you were the one railing on RDM. So I'm not sure how that indicates some problem of my own. I don't have any problem with jobs as long as the person playing it does so at an acceptable level and isn't a detriment to the group. If you want to take 4 BLM, go for it, but everyone else in the group will do less damage as a result. That's balanced? Or not balanced? Perhaps someone should settle on a proper definition of balance to begin with.

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yes, of course. It's not rocket science. The thing is, it's basically always been that way. Support jobs have always done less raw damage than damage dealing jobs. Only now it's a "problem" because it's more apparent, or something.

So the only solution is to get rid of support jobs and just have every DD at 15k DPS (or whatever arbitrary number you want to input). You can't have support jobs deal as much damage as raw dps jobs, because then they would boost each other and exclude the raw dps jobs eventually. Even so, if all the jobs then do more base DPS, SE simply designs bosses to have more HP. It's a horizontal shift that doesn't actually grow into anything new or interesting.

but it has not allways been that way, thats exactly the point, yes "support jobs" have allways dealt less raw damage, that is true, but this isn't about raw damage, this is about raid dps, the last time bard was 10% below the highest job in "raw damage" bard still had 3 dps buffs instead off one, 3, and back than it was 10% below in raw dps, now it is 10% below in raid dps, so raw dps+buffs allready included, bard literally was as far below the highest dps as it is now (percentage wise) before even a single out of 3 group dps buffs were accounted for. Of the 3 buffs only one is left and even including that the gap is as big as it was during alphascape without that last remaining buff, that has nothing to do with it being "more appearent" or whatever, the gap is literally more than twice as big if you include the buffs

Also who says "support jobs " (which really, "support" gets vastly overestimated at this point, bard dps support was gutted, mch has no dps support left at all) should do the same raw damage than a "pure" dps ? what you say is "if they do the same raw damage they will overtake the pure dps in raid damage so no one will take them" guess what ? that whole argument can be boiled down to "if they do more raid damage no one will take the "pure" classes. so following that logic why should you right now take the "support" jobs if even with their support they do less damage than the pure classes ? and not just "a bit less" but a lot ? fact of the matter is , some combination will allways be meta, no matter what, and their will never be perfect balance, both things are fine, that does not mean that a 10% dropoff from the top to the literal middle of the pack is fine

Originally Posted by Akiudo

but it has not allways been that way, thats exactly the point, yes "support jobs" have allways dealt less raw damage, that is true, but this isn't about raw damage, this is about raid dps, the last time bard was 10% below the highest job in "raw damage" bard still had 3 dps buffs instead off one, 3, and back than it was 10% below in raw dps, now it is 10% below in raid dps, so raw dps+buffs allready included, bard literally was as far below the highest dps as it is now (percentage wise) before even a single out of 3 group dps buffs were accounted for. Of the 3 buffs only one is left and even including that the gap is as big as it was during alphascape without that last remaining buff, that has nothing to do with it being "more appearent" or whatever, the gap is literally more than twice as big if you include the buffs

Why are you comparing a support job's output to a raw damage jobs output? There's nothing saying that personal damage + raid damage of a support job has to equal the personal + raid damage of a "top" job. That's setting up an inherent bias which is what SE tried to move away from. So what you're actually saying is that they were successful.

If you want to use bard as an example, then what was wrong with MCH? Why did it suffer in both personal in raid contributions compared to BRD for 2 expansions? So they made MCH deal more damage than BRD, which it does now. And Dancer is beneath both accordingly. Are you trying to say that's not how it should be (given our current situation)?

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Usually when someone starts referring to things as "Chad ____" in some unironic way it indicates some level of insecurity, but anyways.

Are you stereotyping my stereotype? Lol

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Also, balanced means that there shouldn't be much of a dps difference depending on your job choice assuming the same item level, aka it shouldn't matter if you're playing dancer or blm, your total contribution to the raid should be around the same, give or take a few hundred dps.

And my whole point in commenting on this thread is that you can't make those types of generalizations honestly. A dancer isn't going to have as high of raid contribution if there are only 3 other dancers in the group. A Black Mage isn't going to have as high of damage output when there are 3 other BLM providing 0 support for it. 4 BLM, 4 MNK, 4 SAM, it doesn't matter they are all the same logical conclusion of "you should just roll BLM and deal more damage for your group". They aren't going to reach their individual potential, nor contribute to the potential of the group, and that's pretty evident considering NO ONE advocates for building a group around such a comp. What you're suggesting is incredibly difficult to pull off, how are you going to calculate the proper contribution of any job in when any given comp can change it's contribution accordingly? All that's left is throwing your hands in the air and deleting support abilities to balance everything against one another's raw damage only.

I'm not saying they couldn't try to tweak 1-2% here or there to get a tighter spread. But there are limitations and considerations to maintain and the current state of everything pretty much being within 10% range is not bad.