Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by IruruCece

Hard disagree. If complexity is so subjective that it's barely a factor worth considering whatsoever for balancing, then what is the point of mudras or the various OGCDs for SMN? Why even have positionals in general? Because at this point we've reduced "complexity" to busywork for the sake of having it, and two jobs are dealing with more inputs (as part of their identity) for less output than the higher end jobs.

I advocate for complexity to not be used because it’s subjective. For example, I was just told that there have been DNCs talking about how hard the job is to play. This was a bit shocking to me, because I find it very easy to play. Should the job be balanced against what those who say it’s hard say? Or should it be balanced because I say it’s easy?

Any job becomes easier the more you play it—which is why we shouldn’t say “X job is harder/more complex to play, so it should deal more damage”. Jobs that are more complex should feel more rewarding—but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they should be top damage dealers, and the “easy jobs” stay at the bottom.

While it sucks to say it, RDM should not be used as an excuse to not address the concerns SMN players have been raising, or any other DPS for that matter. It should still get looked at, it should absolutely get some serious changes to make it more competitive. Should it be looked at sooner? Maybe. Unfortunately, jobs have been left hanging for information and fixes before, but that doesn't mean fixes and changes aren't coming.

Where did I say that RDM should be used as an excuse to not address SMN? I simply said that, if we balanced jobs because they have a “more complex” rotation, then jobs like RDM would never deal high damage (this would also include jobs like DNC and BRD—both of whom have easy rotations; and, in the case of the latter, a lot of complexity was removed going into ShB from SB).

I merely contested your original “wait and see” suggestion because it has failed to work in the past. MCHs waited 16 months for adjustments in Stormblood. DRK waited an entire expansion for significant changes. RDM waited until Patch 4.4 to not be outDPS’d by BRD, which had far more utility and higher personal damage than the former. And WHM had to deal with the OG Lilies for the entirety of 4.0. Given how long some jobs had to wait and see changes, I am hesitant to just “wait and see”—simply because we may be waiting for quite a while, and end up watching certain jobs being favored over others. Just like what happened in SB.

Most players, myself definitely included, will never see the absolute peak of their job's performance. The people who do are a fraction of the overall player population. While the numbers and hard work are helpful at revealing what issues do currently exist. when those players start saying crap like "even if they buff my Jobs, I won't be happy if another Job is strong," then all they are generating beyond the data is raw sewage.

You haven’t answered my question about who we should balance around, since you seem opposed to balancing around the 95+ percentiles.

They can address the current DPS imbalance without nerfs to "those who need it" because there is no one who actually "needs" nerfs. There are, however, plenty of jobs in the game right now that need buffs and mechanical changes. Something isn't synergizing. Something isn't working. Address those things.

Where was I talking about nerfs? I don’t recall ever bringing up nerfs with regards to any of the jobs in my conversation with you.

Hell, despite the numbers, even Monk has mechanical issues with how it works. If Anatman in the opener was real intention of the developers from the beginning, then it was an extremely bad call. It's not fun to use, and it relies on server ticks we can't really see without a mod. Tornado Kick is back to being situational. Six Sided Star doesn't belong anywhere in any rotation, serving as yet another button to fix our Greased Lightning problems (that we also have Riddle of Earth AND the current Form Shift for).

I am not even slightly opposed to seeing the pure DPS jobs firmly at the top of the heap. But I don't want to face nerfs on top of mechanical issues going unfixed, and the majority of players who are calling for nerfs here aren't even pretending to make that consideration when they throw around "utility" as an excuse.

Several jobs have issues right now: mechanical and/or potency-wise. While Anatman, Tornado Kick, and 6SS have their issues, this is not something exclusive to MNK. We’ve already mentioned SMN’s current design with the Egi Assaults, but: NIN also has rotational issues, SAM’s Shoha is a joke of a skill, BRD has some room for rotational improvements (mostly changes to Apex Arrow and give Bloodletter/Rain of Death charges), MCH needs its latency issues addressed. I’m sure there are more.