Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

You wanted a reason to why, do refrain from calling me biased tho.

Uptime difference is the reason. Having a ranged is safer in terms of uptime and survivability looking at their free movement without punishing their dps. NINs still need a lot more variables to be considered taken instead of a physical ranged.

NIN:
1. melee range/positionals
2. timed casts and imobility from Ten-Chi-Jin
3. hugely affected by the performance of the other 7 players in the party when using TA.
4. Does less rDPS than the other Melees.

Physical Ranged:
1. Personal Performance.
(Only for DNC) 2. performance of the other 7 players in the party.

I am calling you bias because you're completely ignoring facts to maintain this ridiculous idea Ninja is somehow still the second worst job in the game from a damage perspective. Those numbers I posted account for everything you listed. That 15,311 Ninja? Yeah, they used TCJ five times. Likewise, you cannot argue positionals or uptime when every melee DPS deals with this. Those two aside, Ninja will always be dependent on the party because of Trick. If they balance Trick with the assumption you have awful players, good players reap the benefits and suddenly Ninja becomes the best melee bar none. Doing less rDPS isn't holding it back though. Dragoon does less than Monk yet its overwhelmingly more popular. All that's holding Ninja back now is clipping issues caused by far too much double weaving, mudras and TCJ. Considering 5.1 is supposedly going to address this, Ninja's damage could very likely jump higher.

Regardless, none of what you said defends the absurd notion Ninja is weaker than any of the Range, Red Mage and Summoner. Which was the crux of my argument. You're overreacting.

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Ranged:
1. Personal Performance.
(Only for DNC) 2. performance of the other 7 players in the party.

Btw Everything you listed for nin apart from trick attack would be classed as personal performance just saying.

This here is why i think you do not have as good a grasp on the situation, DNC/BRD have more to this,
BRD- Battle Voice based on other 7 party members
BRD- Minne requires target + healer to be useful
DNC- Requires partner to be competent for 2 separate buffs, 1 of which personally affects DNC's dps severely(Espirit/standard)
DNC- Requires melee range(the only physical range class that is mandatory to be up close for a rotation)
DNC- Curing Waltz requires good positioning on you + partner (can save lives/help healers potentially use 1 less gcd)
DNC- Improvisation requires no movement during downtime (you going optimal use during Mealstrom in E3S) and requires your other 7 members in party to get benefit +healers to use healing for the healing buff you know during downtime :P

All 3 physical range if partnered with another
-Timing Samba/Tactician/Troubadour to not overlap

And guess what all do far less rdps than any melee now by too great a number, the mobility should have a tax to it but no more than 200dps between them and lowest melee not the absurd amount it is now let alone the difference between blm/mnk, poor rdm/smn their raise tax is also way too steep right now.

Originally Posted by Allooutrick

Why is it that the only thing people care about is getting every dps class to do as close to the exact same numbers as each other? Is it really that big a deal if a dungeon takes a minute longer or if a dps check is just a smidge tighter? Why not welcome the challenge, strive to excel in content thats already geared to be casual, instead ask the devs to ensure hardcore content is viable with all combinations? We could be asking for diversity in play instead of incredibly balanced numbers.

Your mistake is assuming that people are talking about numbers and balance in a dungeon. They are discussing the numbers and balance in a Savage setting, which is the only place where both truly matter. No one complains about balance in dungeons.

As it stands, all DPS jobs are viable—they can all clear E4S. However, it is clear that parties with more DPS at the top of the current DPS ladder (e.g., DRG, MNK, BLM) will have a far easier time meeting DPS checks and have more room for mistakes/deaths compared to a group that has more DPS at the bottom of the ladder (e.g. SMN, RDM, DNC, BRD, MCH) even when one considers the gear that the jobs would have at this point (Week 5 into the tier—we should all have multiple tome pieces and a few Savage ones).

I was speaking with a friend yesterday about the state of the DPS, and she shared an interesting story about her E4S attempts this week: her static comp of DRG/SAM/BRD/DNC missed the E4S DPS check with a healer death and 1 damage down in Phase 1, where as the pug she later cleared in (DRG/NIN/BLM/BRD) had 2 DPS deaths and still cleared well before the enrage (the deaths were the BLM and NIN). One can argue rotational issues with regards to the static—which is valid. There is always room for improvement there. But the jobs were performing at an average to above average level (ranging from blue to high purple/orange, so at least 50th percentile to near 95th percentile). The pug DPS? DRG was purple, but the NIN and BLM that died both parsed gray (sub-25th percentile). For two jobs to be grey and give a group more leniency than blue to orange DPS jobs with no deaths...that’s a fairly glaring indication that the gaps between the jobs at the top and the ones at the bottom are far too large. Some have to perform at far higher standards than others (the bottom DPS), and still not even come close to a lower percentile top DPS job.

There are upwards of a ~2,000 rDPS gap between some of these jobs with very little reason for such gap to exist in the first place.

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

I'm not gonna debate this, as Its obvious baiting and trolling from your side.

If you read the initial post you see that I would want to see the Ranged and left out casters DPS up. But since you guys wanted to instead only see between your fingers and focus only on the NIN, those things got overseen. So please. Do continue, without reading the initial post.

Thank you.

You mean this:

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

So after the recent cnages of SAM, SMN and NIN, we see that the gap is still too big from the top 3 (MNK,BLM and DRG) than the other DPS.

The amount of potencies that SAM and NIN got, and yet we have a huge gap in damage tells us a couple of things.

1. Dev team doesnt try out their patches.
2. There are still a lot of potency missing on SAM and NIN compaired to the other Melee DPS. Looks like NIN is getting a range tax for some reason?
3. Its still better to take a MNK/DRG over SAM on any given time, as well as taking anything over a NIN except for DNC at the moment which means I suspect we also need buffs on DNC.

Cut off a couple of damage percentages of DRG (about 2%), a bit more on BLM and MNK (3%) and boost every other job's damage percentage by about 5% (RDM, SMN, MCH, BRD, SMN, NIN) and about 6% on DNC.

and this:

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

You wanted a reason to why, do refrain from calling me biased tho.

Uptime difference is the reason. Having a ranged is safer in terms of uptime and survivability looking at their free movement without punishing their dps. NINs still need a lot more variables to be considered taken instead of a physical ranged.

NIN:
1. melee range/positionals
2. timed casts and imobility from Ten-Chi-Jin
3. hugely affected by the performance of the other 7 players in the party when using TA.
4. Does less rDPS than the other Melees.

Physical Ranged:
1. Personal Performance.
(Only for DNC) 2. performance of the other 7 players in the party.

Do not show your bias(hey we all have them) or your lack to class things appropriately do bare in mind nins are beating 5 jobs at least now and only 2 were even touched on in the last live letter those being Smn where they may receive changes in 5.1 and Brd who they said they were going to listen to feedback.

Also Personal performance as per your post would have nin like this:
-Personal Performance
-Trick attack dependency on the other 7 party members

You can't give leeway to 1 job and not offer it to the entire physical range role just to try and prove a point either present them as balanced argument or don't bother presenting them.

No other job is as dependent on the group than dnc is, which you noted sort of, but brd has minor dependency too with Battle Voice, Minne is completely outside brd's control once on target so it needs healer awareness, Dnc's dps is hugely dependent on that partner not messing up on rotations/mechanics/positionings then you have stuff like Improvisation which requires 0 movement during downtime and Leviathan has random dives/puddles so you have to adapt on the fly to get to a safe spot early to get some use out of it and then it is dependent on the 7 other party members being in it.

To give Nin multiple bullet points for stuff that is purely down to the individual yet not give bullet points to the physical ranged for stuff that is wholly dependent on the party to be effective is disingenuous and makes it come across as a strawman's argument.