Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by Crushnight

That is alarmingly different to a point where the top 4 DPS are outputting more than a 9th person playing an AST at 50th percentile level, That is too high a difference and does need to be corrected because that shouldn't be allowed to be that high. at most the top 4 DPS combined should be no higher than 1k DPS ahead of the combined 4 lowest DPS right now any one playing the lower DPS jobs are truly hurting their team through no fault of their own this should be corrected fast.

So to you, the difference should be something like

1. 14,000
2. 13,975
3. 13,950
4. 13,925
5. 13,900
6. 13,875
7. 13,850
8. 13,825
9. 13,800
10. 13,775

Who would you like to assign to each?

Further, how would you achieve this?

Are you primarily buffing potency (personal DPS)?

Are you primarily buffing their buffs? ("RDPS")

Do any of the jobs gain something?

Do any of the jobs lose something?

Originally Posted by Kabooa

So to you, the difference should be something like

1. 14,000
2. 13,975
3. 13,950
4. 13,925
5. 13,900
6. 13,875
7. 13,850
8. 13,825
9. 13,800
10. 13,775

Who would you like to assign to each?

Further, how would you achieve this?

Are you primarily buffing potency (personal DPS)?

Are you primarily buffing their buffs? ("RDPS")

Do any of the jobs gain something?

Do any of the jobs lose something?

It's even easier thant that. Set a benchmark for a role and balance jobs belonging to that role to be as close to that benchmark possible. A reasonable benchmark would be, in my opinion, the following (in terms of rdps):
Melee: 14k
Casters: 13.5k
Ranged: 13k.

This ensures that a standard comp with 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged is the optimal one.
The absurd thing is that right now they're talking about how sam can make the most out of party buffs (we're talking about a 200-300 dps advantage here) when we have jobs with almost 2k rdps difference.

Originally Posted by Lastelli

This ensures that a standard comp with 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged is the optimal one.

this is one thing i allways find interesting, obviously it is like that right now, and actually has been since like forever, but realistically, why SHOULD double melee be encouraged ? i get why you should encourage at least one of every role, and while i personally think (for easier balancing in a diversity sense) they should just throw caster and physical ranged together at least for now thats obviously not the intent with the different role bonus and all, but...

Why, if square allready gives you incentive to have 1/1/1 should they actually encouraged people to fill the last slot with one of 3 classes (the remaining melee) while leaving 4 other classes (the remaining ranged/casters) to their own devices ? every statement about raidbuffs and utility and what not from them is basically "we want to move away from the meta" so why actively encourage that a minority of classes gets the majority of spots ?

Originally Posted by Crushnight

going to use 95th percentile for Titan(E4S):
A team using Blm/Mnk/Drg/Sam, 14763/14611/14347/14354 - DPS total = 58,075
B team using Smn/Rdm/Brd/Dnc, 13279/13182/13087/12883 - DPS total = 52,431

Difference in Dps = 5,644

That is alarmingly different to a point where the top 4 DPS are outputting more than a 9th person playing an AST at 50th percentile level, That is too high a difference and does need to be corrected because that shouldn't be allowed to be that high. at most the top 4 DPS combined should be no higher than 1k DPS ahead of the combined 4 lowest DPS right now any one playing the lower DPS jobs are truly hurting their team through no fault of their own this should be corrected fast.

It’s worth mentioning the latter comp won’t happen in most situations since people will always want at least one melee to LB3.

Even with one of the second party swapped out for a melee though, the gap is still several thousands too wide.

This thread seems to have devolved into some kind of strange concern trolling about how the worst DPS imbalance in the last 3-4 years is actually perfectly fine, which makes me wonder how the poster proposing this in question feels about Alphascape era balance. Maybe the game being better balanced was actually a bad thing? Should we aspire to have a level of class balance comparable to that of Classic World of Warcraft? Who knows, but this thread surely has taken a strange turn in the last few pages.

Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

This thread seems to have devolved into some kind of strange concern trolling about how the worst DPS imbalance in the last 3-4 years is actually perfectly fine, which makes me wonder how the poster proposing this in question feels about Alphascape era balance. Maybe the game being better balanced was actually a bad thing? Should we aspire to have a level of class balance comparable to that of Classic World of Warcraft? Who knows, but this thread surely has taken a strange turn in the last few pages.

to me it looks more like the same 2 or 3 people that will defend terrible balance just keep doing this, like "person A" posts "classes cant be perfectly balanced either way so it doesn't matter if they are even remotely balanced" ->3 or 4 different people tell person a why that argument is a terrible one , "person A" than just repeats "but you guys will never be happy so why change anything?" while making a ridiculous strawman out of things no one ever said until people stop trying to convince him/her. you don't need this to be a majority opinion or anything, just need a few extra zaelous people to repeat it until everyone else leaves the discussion

From what i gathered those saying it's fine aren't talking about balance, but replying to people insisting it's impossible to clear with any job. Which is very confusing for reasons that it's a thread about balance and nobody is insisting that you cant ^^

Originally Posted by Akiudo

this is one thing i allways find interesting, obviously it is like that right now, and actually has been since like forever, but realistically, why SHOULD double melee be encouraged ? i get why you should encourage at least one of every role, and while i personally think (for easier balancing in a diversity sense) they should just throw caster and physical ranged together at least for now thats obviously not the intent with the different role bonus and all, but...

Why, if square allready gives you incentive to have 1/1/1 should they actually encouraged people to fill the last slot with one of 3 classes (the remaining melee) while leaving 4 other classes (the remaining ranged/casters) to their own devices ? every statement about raidbuffs and utility and what not from them is basically "we want to move away from the meta" so why actively encourage that a minority of classes gets the majority of spots ?

Couple simple reasons.

1st fight design. Ranged physical can fill amy role, but the game definately began with 2 melee 2 ranged as the ideal comp, this is particularily evident when you look at diagrams from before release.

2nd was how the game was originally intended. (MNK, DRG, BRD BLM) SMN and NIN were released later.

3rd class role distribution. As time went on ranged split into 2 class roles, magical and physical. This was in part because thw ranged role was inflated, and in part because of the distinctive differences that developed post hw casting time wise.

4th again role distribution. Currently there is two tank slots:4 tanks, 2 healer slots:3 healers, 2 melee slots 4 melee. 1 rng phys: 3 ranged and 1rng caster: 3 casters.

This is in part why many people guess that the next big expansion will add another healer and maybe a new melee will follow later (side note my money is on a melee beastmaster hinted by ranjits combat style. Could be totally wrong tho). Currently melee needs the second spot more than either ranged by a small margin of class choice value options.

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

From what i gathered those saying it's fine aren't talking about balance, but replying to people insisting it's impossible to clear with any job. Which is very confusing for reasons that it's a thread about balance and nobody is insisting that you cant ^^

Is it impossible to clear with X jobs or X comps?
No, you can clear with every 2 Tank / 2 Healers / 4 DPS comp

The problem is that some comps using BLM, MNK, DRG, NIN and/or SAM will have a much easier time clearing content.
Ranged DPS, SMN and RDM are taxed for utility/mobility that doesn't lives up to the cost.

The other problem is that a bad MNK, BLM, DRG will do as much DPS as a ranged DPS/RDM/SMN, not rewarding their skill and job optimisation.

You have the argument that since all jobs can clear so nobody should care, that the tax is deserved.
And you have the argument that ranged/SMN/RDM's effort should be rewarded as much as any melee effort.

For example about a "random" (One of the worst, I have to admit) FFLog Report on E4S:
Machinist - 71th percentile - 12.678 rDPS
Black Mage - 21th Percentile - 12.325 rDPS
Monk - 13th Percentile - 12.510 rDPS
Dragoon - 13th Percentile - 12.256 rDPS

In other words, if their Black mage was a SMN/RDM or their MNK/DRG was a SAM/NIN they wouldn't have cleared E4S.
Jobs DPS disparity is so big that if you can't do the mechanics right, shifting your comp to the highest DPS job becomes a pass for the clear.

Yes, i know that Balance and ability to clear are mostly unrelated, i.e. all jobs could be able to clear and be balanced, all jobs could be able to clear and be unbalanced, neither jobs could be able to clear and be balanced/unbalanced (though i guess content difficulty would be unbalanced in this case), and there could be a case where only some jobs would be able to clear and not other, but with current dps requirements for SE to screw up that badly there'd need to be a dps job doing literally 0 dps, thought i think it could still be able to clear?