Question about FFLogs

[Shougun]

Well, here's the thing about battle log privacy: it's not private. It's factually not private. It may feel like it should be to some and others may treat it like it is but it's actually not private.

I look at it this way- you're in a public space doing whatever, and someone who logs and then uploads you name tagged would then be the person in that public space who has not only taken a picture with you in it but then also purposefully face recognized you and put you in a database that other people can look up. So now you're in a detailed public database of where and what you've done that you might not have even known about and one you clearly didn't consent to.

Yes you're in a public space (in the example above, technically here we are in "SE's space, like inside a corporation's building/theater"), and it will indeed look bad if you start screaming at that random person recording you on camera "DONT FILM ME Q_Q /rage /tableflip /roll on ground /knock over trash can". Yet at the same time I can imagine people, at least a number of people, could see that and go to the camera man that's following you in the public space and be like "dude... knock it off, you not only don't need to record this random person, not only upload their image, but you don't need to also tag them into a database- all clearly without their consent.. it's a bit creepy".

Of course it's the age of data, and the programs make this exceptionally easy, so I'm not trying to say everyone uploading their parses with collateral damage of other names is creepy- to them it's more like they've been recording themselves at a concert with a static group of strangers (purpose was not to record the strangers). Though technically some people may be recording not for their self-purpsoses, and in that example of the video you don't normally go database tag the strangers lol. It's Just that the feeling I have is "I understand I was in a public space but I did not consent to you recording me and then uploading me to a search-able database, I would like you not to do that". To me when I get into a group picture (intentionally) I've consented to the uploading of that image with my name but I guess another example you could make is you're in a group setting and someone has been following you around and taking pictures of you, a different scenario ("Shougun drinking from a water fountain, Shougun going to the bathroom, Shougun ordering fatty food" - awkward). Again I don't want to argue its illegal, but it's just creepy to me and it does feel like a non-illegal invasion of my privacy (or at least a privacy I'd like to have, so therefore "imo" it's an invasion- you don't need a public database on my doings and whereabouts lol).

In a bit of a hyperbole but "close enough, to be a vague analogy" to me it's like tracking people and slapping a social score on them without them opting in (China's social system, Community's meow meow beans, Black Mirror's Nosedive), obviously those log sites have a far less dystopian effect or even a tenth of an important effect lol yet it just makes me think "no thanks, knock it off".

In other news I went to check the website, having made account just to turn it private (which apparently they undid or I did and forgot, not a big deal lol), and I wanted to see if there were any logs of them. Not a single log :3. So if people were petrified of the site I'd be less so. Though I personally still find the existence of a non-consenting personally identifying (ish, not my real name lol) database as undesirable. Of course I can see the objective benefit it gives personal and groups helpful and powerful tools to improve and learn. Although part of the reason I'm probably not in a log at the moment is that I don't savage/ultimate either, just not my cup of tea anymore (used to do that stuff in WoW/FFXI and even Twintania). I just feel like keeping a static schedule or dealing with the plethora of silly drama PF issues is too much of a hassle (to me) and takes away the fun- DF for life for me lol. Also since I don't savage the social ramifications for me have been pretty much zero (if someone silently made a judgment I wouldn't have known), no one has needed to see my logs (that don't even exist apparently lol, I know the system deletes them with age so that's probably what happened).

Not that I'm even ashamed of the damage I think I put out because I do try to be in the upper bracket of "helpfulness to the team", or top (preferable ), of each group (not perfect, or care to use potions lol, but I'm certainly not an ice mage). So at the end, as I said, I just find it invasive and undesirable to have non-consenting identified logs of things I may or may not need to care about later. Like having a twitter (obviously consenting) history and then someone going 8 years back to find something to get you with.. that stuff just makes me "nope" (I've also purged most of my facebook and personal twitter ).

[Shougun]

Fair enough on the non-illegal invasion of your privacy feeling. In the post I made, I pretty much said people would feel this way. It's just that this thread is not the first nor will it be the last thread to discuss the website and many times have people propped up log information as being factually private when it isn't. It's what I wanted to clarify there.

That's fair, I just thought you might have had some of that directed at me and I just wanted to explain lol. There's no rage and on that website / discussion as long as I wasn't being harassed (it's not happened yet) and if not harassment then I'd not report anything (even if I had the ability to make something "happen" out of it- but I do encourage the don't ask don't tell as Yoshida does for everyone's smooth operating accounts, and well of course not to harass with it xD). I'm not even really against parsers (used them in WoW, where it's not against the ToS), personally I think SE should give every player an annoymized parser in game. Annomyized in that it'll rank you to other players of like gear set ups and such, and it'll give you full clarity of how you personally did in content (if you want it)- but it wont reveal you to others. With perhaps little goofy awards and stuff like FPS and MOBAs have, although that might encourage players trying to farm certain results so.. /shrug people are funny XD.

As to what I quoted there, well it basically comes down these three things: Possession, Trust and Usage, right? I mean, we can take the public scope by applying it to city you live. Cameras at intersection, cameras on buildings, cameras just about everywhere, etc. The thing is, most people don't think twice on it because there's inherent trust or faith that in the places they go, the usage of what they possess (i.e your face on camera) will not be misused. Obviously, this becomes a completely different thing when it comes to a total stranger snapping a picture of you and depending on where you live, either you'll just have to suck it up and go home in defeat or succeed in having the material surrendered.

I don't really like the cameras on every street corner with tracking + facial recognition idea (different than traffic light, more of what China uses), where I live (US non-main city) we don't have as many as say some places in Europe or other countries though. At the same time it's undeniable that some freedom and privacy lost means some safety gained. I'm just very cautious about what you lose and for what. Easy to lose hard to gain back and demands a revolution, a revolt, or something of intense scale to get things back. Not that people posting your logs in an online game is that serious of an issue lol, some really first world privacy issue haha (just tyring to explain my mindset, to me I loathe the "don't need privacy unless you have something to hide argument" because it can be used to strip us very bare and so I try to be consistent just to cultivate as much of that enviroment as I can).

Yeah for the total stranger snapping photos of you- for the players who uploaded their logs of course they wont see it that way because they're not doing it for "you" they're doing it for "them" (no harm or privacy breech meant). You photo bombed their image, in their mind. Well most of the people I assume. There are probably some less than well meaning people that are like "HAHAHA I CAUGHT THIS STREAMER SUCKING, TIME TO UPLOAD YEEEE". lol. But it is a little different here since you're also auto-tagging them in your photo (by feature of the tool). Just trying to explain that to someone who didn't accept the system, didn't accept a stranger "tagging them" in a public database that it begins to feel more creepy, even if they might have accepted it if asked or other things like traffic cameras that don't tag you in quite the same way. Like I block most scripts and cookies on the internet, it's not for some random website to know what other websites I've visited or whatever even if I personally might feel free to say it. But I've also allowed a number of tracking services, like so I can resume my videos where I last left off- which is super helpful when you're going to bed sleepy XD. Sort of a consent and purpose thing to me, and I don't even want to say consent like some great harm has been done but just that "it'd be nice if you had my consent to do that...". Since it's the day of data I don't send angry emails or whatever, but I do usually auto-pilot set the settings on social profiles to fairly dark unless some other reason needed (like my youtube or it's twitter, or my lodestone if certain websites need it to read off achievements for my own interest).

So what this means for users who finally become aware of FFlog's existence and don't like it? At this current time, seems like a "go home in defeat" scenario and like I mentioned in my post, there are still options. Options that obviously suck for those users but until SE decides to be actively aggressive about log information being publicly accessed without a user's awareness, never mind consent, and enables sanctions and restrictive in-game features and policies, there's very little can do. It'd be like when my friend's grandma lost her mind when she realized there's big satellite that took a picture of her house some...four-five years ago? Never mind the house is basically in total public view and any passerby could've taken a thousand pictures of it; she just didn't like the idea that a satellite could be taking pictures of her through her window while she's "indecent".

Oh yes, the whole satellite thing she became aware of? Google Earth >.>

It's definitely a losing battle (I carry a smart phone, for all google cares I might as well just run a daily vlog from my shower @_@ lol).. Like I said in my first post the website could anonymize everyone who doesn't volunteer to be part of it, but then you might just see a competitor website appear and people flock there because of the features (like certain invasive DRMs can make cracks look like a legitimate feature).

Google earth is creepy! lol, it's also very very cool :P.

Didn't mean to be like "NO U WRONG" but just trying to explain, because I see it often (haha like you see these sorts of threads), that wanting to have some sort of consent doesn't mean you have something to hide or whatever. Not that I feel like you've got any problem with me, nor I you , just trying to keep points clarified for a good conversation~! To try and explain some people are just naturally more private, and I guess I find it a bit disheartening to see when people have a hard time imagining that. (Again the whole if you have nothing to hide then why does it matter argument is probably a minor pet peeve of mine, not that you were saying that - just want to explain privacy just for the sake of privacy is good.. at least to some people).