Have we given up on SCH?

[EaMett]

You not even considerate if you got all those skills to your SCH back it should be nerfed, to not break their job in comparison to the others, if the point it's all about to be fun not to be OP Broken, so reducing all their skills damage potency by half wouldn't be a problem, but that possibility never came at your mind or many others here, so your Damage would remain basically the same that already is but more fun to play with more skills to cast, so their potency would be ajusted to fit ito new amount. But seems like be fun isn't the only point required here, be broken is the another one like SCH should be on the top for every point.

Ever since the media tour we've been asking for a broil nerf to get a couple extra dots. This was even before the content launched. Nobody here is asking for free skills and extra dps (although there's still a bit of an imbalance since double WHM actually seems like the better comp this tier, but that's an entirely different topic). We're asking for more to do than spam a single button in raid and dungeons. We're also asking for all the sch bugs to be fixed already.
Broil nerf also fixes ruin II potency issues so that's just extra bonus as it would fix the uncomfortable clipping in some instances. And btw, the nerf wouldn't need to be anywhere near a 50% nerf which was a total exaggeration on your part. I can't remember what it calculated to but it was something to the effect of a 5-10% nerf.

It's funny how it's often the non healer mains that come here and tell us everything is fine and that we're whining babies or can't measure the impact of our requests.

Also, adding a dps skill to the lily system is not a good idea and would go against the design and balancing reasoning they've set up for this expansion. Lilies are already DPS, don't add dps ontop of that. The 30s timer on current fluid aura is absolutely fine and lines up with average tier players using ED (roughly) and the lily generation timer. It actually fits their model and will be easier for them to track comparitively to other healers like sch.

Adding damage % to temperance again is clearly missing the current state of affairs. WHM already outdps every other healer (rdps). They really don't need it. If you don't know where to use temperance (which is already an amazing skill btw) then that's on you.

Also WHM is on top for healing, mostly because of healing priorities among healer comps. Not sure why you say SCH is. (not that being "on top" means anything in a game where you should be aiming at doing as little healing as possible... but yeah)

[Hatstand]

I already did that answer, i would prefer first fix the skill issues, after the playstyle. And the playstyle is something that can be requested in general, not individual, like i said all healers are in the same boat about their Damage Skill amount and rotations.

And i don't think SCHs changes are easily or WHM changes are something for the next Expansion. Some examples based on the game right now:

WHM:

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't have to overheal to build their gauge, a similar issue that SCH had until 5.05, people asked for Energy Drain back and they got, Energy Drain was deleted, Fluid Aura still there.
- Holy and AoE Heals like Medica and Medica II: 2 secs cast time, all healers got 2 secs for the cast while WHM still have 2.5.
- Temperance: 5% Damage Boost, that way WHM get some Utility at same time do not become better than AST on it ( 6% for Divination more ~7 individual cards doing 6%/8% each for the same amount of time ).******
- Presence of Mind AoE Trait: for some Utility as well.*******

****** ( Temperance OR Presence of Mind, don't need to be both, only one ).

That's more than enough to WHM to me, if WHM kit don't have Utility ( like now ) they should be on the top for Healing ( SCH at this moment ) and Damage ( WHM for now ), just like WAR, BLM and SAM usually are, no Utility = more potencies, at SB for example they was the worst for both points, do you agree?.

AST right now:

- Old Cards effect back ( except for Ewer/Spire ).
- Cellestial Opposition: Stun OR 500MP~1000MP regen just like Assize.

Do you aggre?.

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About bring some damage skills back, i do agree, i do want it too, but for all healers not only one especially AoE DoTs what was way handy in Big Pulls. Cleric Stance would be nice as well ( SB Version ).

For WHM, I agree with giving them a dps Lily option, but think it shouldn't nourish the blood lily, or should nourish it less. Right now it's a nice give and take between heals and dps. Having a dps lily that also nourished the blood lily a small much as a heal would risk turning the lilies into a pure dps mechanic.

For cast times, I don't think holy should have a shorter time unless the stun is nerfed. AoW and Gravity need shorter cast times because you have to weave heals in. Holy's stun mitigates damage, so it's more spammable.

I don't think it needs a damage boost on temperance. It's rdps is already highest of the healers, and a flat buff in a long cooldown doesn't add much to gameplay (much like chain stratagem doesn't).

I agree on AST changes, but WHMs need buffs to their play style, bit their capabilities. Just like SCHs.

(And yes, we all realise that our existing dps moves would need to be needed to get our old ones back. It's just that we've already said it so many times it's tiring to repeat all the little details over and over.

[EaMett]

For WHM, I agree with giving them a dps Lily option, but think it shouldn't nourish the blood lily, or should nourish it less. Right now it's a nice give and take between heals and dps. Having a dps lily that also nourished the blood lily a small much as a heal would risk turning the lilies into a pure dps mechanic.

The thing is, if it doesn't nourish the blood lily you would need the potency to be higher than glare to even bother and lilies would then become a dps mechanic. If it does nourish the blood lily you basically have a dps positive heal window which no other healer has and you enter a bit of a balance nightmare situation.

The current iteration is so good because lily cost is equivalent to an ogcd cost. Anything that screws with this will basically break the mechanic. (short of adding something similar to other healers which we won't see this expansion). lilies should remain a healing mechanic for the time being.

[Hatstand]

The thing is, if it doesn't nourish the blood lily you would need the potency to be higher than glare to even bother and lilies would then become a dps mechanic. If it does nourish the blood lily you basically have a dps positive heal window which no other healer has and you enter a bit of a balance nightmare situation.

The current iteration is so good because lily cost is equivalent to an ogcd cost. Anything that screws with this will basically break the mechanic.

My suggestion (over in the WHM thread) was a potency 150 dps move that nourishes the blood lily for half as much as a heal. It'd delay your misery by 15 seconds, and so 150 potency would keep it dps neutral with misery. It would only be half the potency of a glare, so it'd have to be woven to be used effectively, but it would keep the timer on lily generation rolling. (And would give you a choice between a small bit of extra dps now and more later, since misery is aoe.)

It'd have niche uses. It'd be useful close to the end of a fight when you knew another misery wouldn't make it, or in dps checks that you haven't lined up correctly with your misery to help a bit with dps while weaving in your instant heals rather than clipping broil.

Then again, much like ruin 2 you'd probably have to double weave to keep it ahead of glare. Having such powerful nukes actually seems really bad for healers. It makes it hard for anything other than a nuke spam to be optimal. Maybe the right solution is to nerf glare. Then WHM could have a utility button like they’ve been asking for and we could also give them more interesting alternatives to glare without them being too OP.

[EaMett]

My suggestion (over in the WHM thread) was a potency 150 dps move that nourishes the blood lily for half as much as a heal. It'd delay your misery by 15 seconds, and so 150 potency would keep it dps neutral with misery. It would only be half the potency of a glare, so it'd have to be woven to be used effectively, but it would keep the timer on lily generation rolling. (And would give you a choice between a small bit of extra dps now and more later, since misery is aoe.)

It'd have niche uses. It'd be useful close to the end of a fight when you knew another misery wouldn't make it, or in dps checks that you haven't lined up correctly with your misery to help a bit with dps while weaving in your instant heals rather than clipping broil.

Then again, much like ruin 2 you'd probably have to double weave to keep it ahead of glare. Having such powerful nukes actually seems really bad for healers. It makes it hard for anything other than a nuke spam to be optimal. Maybe the right solution is to nerf glare. Then WHM could have a untilitu button like there been asking for and we could also give them more interesting alternatives to glare without them being too OP.

It's late so I'm going to think out loud here to make sure I don't make mistakes. Half a blood lily would be essentially equivalent to 112.5 potency. To which you add 150 for a total of 262.5 potency. Although that isn't a dps positive healing window it's still a cost opportunity of 40ish potency for a weave. If that's correct you end up having different cost opportunities for weaves among healers and that's really hard to balance properly. Even moreso considering they haven't managed to balance things before and decided to homogenize to make it easier. This would go against that.
We need to keep in mind that lilies are already such a good mechanic that you would still use them even if they did nothing other than feed the blood lily. It would still allow you to make small gains on your weaving.

All in all it's even harder to consider these types of changes when you have simpler options, like you could simply add potency to an existing skill "as is" with fluid aura. Add 80 potency which means it's basically only a dps gain if you weave it and call it a day. That alone would already be a good gameplay improvement. If you think WHM is in a good spot DPS wise currently you can even nerf a dot or something to make up for it.

[DenzelVilliers]

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About 50% it was metaphorical, but 50% nerf ( literally ) isn't a bad deal based on how much damage those skill was going to do, something to make SCH Damage be the same or close of it without overcome WHM ( who MUST have the highest DPS, because they don't have Utility and must shine in something ).

About non Healers main, the "main job" concept for you probably is: "i play and focus only on this job", to me is more like: "My resources, like Weekly drops goes first to this job", but i do play all Tanks and Healers everyday, obviously i do more preference for Tanks because they have specific Achievments to do, but i do play as Healer pretty much as well, if i want to farm some content and both tank slots is already unvailable, i go as Healer without think twice. That way i never get tired of playing with the same job over and over again, it's boring.

About Lilly to me is a great idea, when i play WHM their ogcd Heals are more than enough to keep Tank alive, Holy has the same Hollowed Ground effect for each pull + Regen + Divine Benison + Medica II or Asylum ( Assize / Tetragramaton when necessary ) is everything i need to clear each wave, i honestly don't remember the last time i casted Cure as WHM, Afflatus Solace is a rare casting for Heals and Afflatus Rapture sometimes i forget that is even there. At big pulls/Dungeon bosses i can say for sure that i use Afflatus Solace as overheal 90% of time, Afflatus Rapture 100% of time.
When i play as WHM in Full Party groups, nothing changes and sometimes is even worst since there's another one healing too. WHM are overhealing to build their gauge most of time, so in my point of view a Damage Skills is more than welcome, because if you must spent your stack and heal isn't need at that moment you can damage instead. Something similar that happens to me as SCH, if Afterflow CD is about to be ready and still have stacks on, i do apply Energy Drain in my rotation to make damage and recast Afterflow without lose my stacks or overheal for it.

Add Damage on Temperance is not about WHM personal DPS, is about Party Utility, i would mind at all if WHM wasn't affected by Temperance status in that situation ( just like BRD's Battle Voice ), the real point is that WHM must have something for Utility to bring at table as well not to increase their damage even more. SCH can cast a "Temperance skill" but better and faster each 30 secs ( 10% damage reduction + Regen ).

I do say SCH is on top of healing because in my personal Experience SCHs are easier to heal in ShB, they have many strong ogcd heals, Fairy, and more resources, soloing end-game content as SCH feels so much easier than WHM does ( AST i tried once and i failed, it was before their last updates i must say, i didn't tried again ).

[Hatstand]

Add Damage on Temperance is not about WHM personal DPS, is about Party Utility, i would mind at all if WHM wasn't affected by Temperance status in that situation ( just like BRD's Battle Voice ), the real point is that WHM must have something for Utility to bring at table as well not to increase their damage even more. SCH can cast a "Temperance skill" but better and faster each 30 secs ( 10% damage reduction + Regen ).

Offensive utility is only useful in the rDPS it has. WHM already has the highest rDPS out of any healer without any offensive utility. If you gave them offensive utility, you'd need to nerf their personal dps. If WHMs are happy with that, and would prefer a bit of utility in exchange for personal dps then I hope they get it, but to me, personally, pressing a button once every few minutes is even less interesting than maintaining the one button spam.

[Saefinn]

You not even considerate if you got all those skills to your SCH back it should be nerfed, to not break their job in comparison to the others, if the point it's all about to be fun not to be OP Broken, so reducing all their skills damage potency by half wouldn't be a problem, but that possibility never came at your mind or many others here, so your Damage would remain basically the same that already is but more fun to play with more skills to cast, so their potency would be ajusted to fit ito new amount. But seems like be fun isn't the only point required here, be broken is the another one like SCH should be on the top for every point.

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On the contrary, I have asked for nerfs. In fact I’ve asked for an evolution of 2.0 Scholar, which wasn’t OP but still had all those skills. This is because SCH healing was weak in comparison to WHM, our down time was lesser, but our DoT’s made up for that fact and WHM had stronger DPS too, because this was before the 1000 nerfs of holy. And I had to utilise my toolkit better. In 2.0 WHM and SCH had a really good relationship and complimented each other well IMO.

But I figure it is a given that to get skills back, sacrifices must be made elsewhere and honestly I don’t think people would mind potency drops if it meant balance. As somebody else put it in another thread, I’d rather have have a Bio of 30 potency and a miasma of 30 potency than a bio of 60 potency. Of better yet, a bio of 20, a bio 2 of 20 and a miasma of 20. Or going the other way, I have no issue of WHM and AST DPS being brought up.

Though in fairness my most preferred option would have been to nerf pure healing, reduce my downtime, give back old cleric stance and make it so I have a harder time to weave DPS and make healing more engaging because I have to account for weaker pure healing. And that would mean better use of my healing toolkit and it’d feel more unique because I have to make better use of spells that aren’t like WHM’s. But I realise not all would be happy with that, hence my willingness to compromise.

With gradual, I meant that WHM felt the hit first and has done so over time, whereas although there were issues with SCH and AST already, I think the impact was felt in ShB. I think this may be why there’s a bigger SCH and AST representation here at the moment versus WHM.

[edit]

To clarify what I meant by ‘broken’ is in the context of you saying SCH works fine, so broken in the sense it doesn’t work properly, rather than broken in the context of being OP.

[Anselmet]

I'm not pressuming anything, some people are asking for buffs, some buffs that's going to break the job ( days ago someone did a wish list request for SCH skills to be applied that i became perplexed about it ), but there's people like you asking for skills and nerfs if necessary to be balanced in exchange for more options ( and i've seen you pointing that more than once ), not everyone is like you, in this thread and many others.

I'm pretty sure the mass majority would take shadow flare and all of our old dots back even if it meant nerfing our dps into the ground. Scholar (and honestly all healers) are so boring to play that I have left healing entirely to have a tank as my second main. I have never tanked seriously in this game until Shadowbringers and I was a sch main until Shadowbringers. It also hurts a lot more for sch mains to be reduced to three buttons because historically speaking we have always had more to our dps kits. I think whm and ast more or less lost one dot in their dps rotation between stormblood and shadowbringers. So in the dps factor having less to do hurts our gameplay a lot more than those of who mained the other healers. They don't feel it the same way we do. With energy drain restored we are still missing five or six different dps skills. What are you whms missing again? Aero III? Asts??? Oh no, how will you survive without your two different combust spells!!!

Edit: Might I add I think overall sch works but its boring. Its still a good healer its just dear god I have too much downtime in most fights and a man can only hit broil iii so many times before they want to pass out.

[Sloprano]

You not even considerate if you got all those skills to your SCH back it should be nerfed, to not break their job in comparison to the others, if the point it's all about to be fun not to be OP Broken, so reducing all their skills damage potency by half wouldn't be a problem, but that possibility never came at your mind or many others here, so your Damage would remain basically the same that already is but more fun to play with more skills to cast, so their potency would be ajusted to fit ito new amount. But seems like be fun isn't the only point required here, be broken is the another one like SCH should be on the top for every point.

That is a point I cannot stress enough for the changes I, and as I've learned coming here it seems several others wish for, to have SCH's effectiveness spread out over several small and weak dots, buffs, debuffs, fairies, shields and heals. I want to my work my ass off because I have so many situational skills, not because I want to Broil III twelve times in a row instead of elleven. Also this thread was made with scholar job in mind, I'm no authority on the other healers so can't rightly speak for them.

The more I write here the easier it has become to summarize the feelings about old and current Scholar. I tend to get long-winded about these things so a
TL;DR: I want to feel inconvenienced on scholar again.

Over time playing it feels Arcanist/Scholar was designed by some genius that then handed the job over to someone who only knew it was a "healer" without knowing what made it tick. So over the years it feels SE wanted to make things more convenient for sch. Removed Cleric Stance, made damage scale of Mind, reduced the need to micromanage the fairy and then started removing damage skills and baking them into just a couple.

If tomorrow SE goes "You don't like current SCH? Fine, we'll give you back int damage scaling, Cleric stance, (mortal) fairies' skills, Selene, pet hotbar, 5 dots and the entire 3.0 arcanist toolkit. But then we'll take away Broil, Chain strat, Recitation (and catalyze), Indom, Fey Gauge, Excog, Seraph etc." And I'd jump to the challenge right away. Would have to work doubly hard than any of the other healers just to barely reach the same healing and damage potential, but it would be worth it. I might've gotten carried away with the trimming yet it would be interesting to see it.

Want to bring up WoW Classic only because SE have mentioned it was the inspiration for 2.0, but I'm starting to feel they copied WoW at it's current state then and never stopped. Not only scholar, but a whole lot of the game have been about just "the reward". The thing at the end of every quest, daily, roulette and now combat, the thing between the start and your goal seems to have been forgotten. Was reminded by that when a class trainer straight up told me to travel across half the world, on foot, through hostile and high-level territories just to get a new cornerstone skill. And can't shake the feeling SE have gone completely opposite. You healer want to heal? Allow us to remove all those nuanced tools and give you a strong instant healing spell. You want to deal some damage? Let us take away all stance dancing and thoses several small damage skills and give you a single strong spell instead.