Have we given up on SCH?

[Schan]

I became jaded when my DPS rotation boiled down to one dot and one filler spell from lvl 4 to lvl 80. That's boring AF.

snip

And then people wonder why no one plays healers and there are is an extreme healer shortage in endgame content.

It's fine and understandable to be frustrated and upset over the changes. It's not fine to ooze sarcasm and demonize the devs and starting to spit vitriol (not saying that you are in this particular instance).
It's fine to complain and list the issues the jobs have. it's not fine to

"just keep taking the punches, they'll MAYBE stop and pat you on the head a year or two down the line"

No. Complain. Some form of feedback is reaching them be it by number crunching ( which is what companies rely on heavily) or what the community managers tell them (apparently they sit around reading stuff and making reports). It's their choice to take it on board or not. We must not be completely jaded. On the flip side we are very good at listing problems but not as good at listing solutions and even then I doubt they would look into the English forums for that. Futhermore even when people list their ideas there are several people for or against them just in the forums (which is a tiny sample of the population) so how can they figure out which ones are ideas that will be accepted by the majority of players?

I am particularly sad with the lack of communication but then again there is a lot of stuff to fix this expansion and technically healers were part of the urgent priorities of "stuff to fix" once the expansion rolled out. It's not what people wanted but the tweaks are there and they did help.

I don't mean dev shifting goal posts. Goal post shifting is what people do when the point of their argument hasn't been proven when a goal post set is hit, so they move the goal post and tend to ad infinitum.

Well that's nice and dandy except for the fact that this is a forum. I would agree with you if you meant a person is goal post shifting but applying that to a whole community with different expectations is a bit too much and for me on an argumentative point of view has no value.
What I do is try something out, complain, hope my complaints are part of the majority that are reaching the devs' ears. If it is, cool. If it isn't I need to deal with the fact that my opinion was part of a minority and I need to suck it up.

I'm not down with the "clean slate" theory because that basically means we're just a beta test over the course of years to develop the role so that in 7.x it might feel complete.

I mean... as an online game it will never be complete because otherwise they wouldn't be able to give us more content. Cuz you know... it's complete.

[Saefinn]

Well that's nice and dandy except for the fact that this is a forum. -snip-

I still feel shifting the goal post is a fair description, maybe not put such a heavy weight on individuals, because that's unfair, but the point I was making, at each goal post we hit, somebody else comes along and then they set it somewhere else. I don't point it out for the sake of trying to illustrate a logical fallacy, but to highlight "this is not the first time".

Hence my point about Sisyphus, whilst we can go for a "wait and see" ad infinitum, but there becomes a point when you're pushing a rock for eternity. Hence why I am vocal about the issues, rather than just "hoping" stuff gets fixed.

And I have tried it out. But what we said during the media tour was not wrong. A lot of people will say "wait and see before you complain". But we play our jobs a lot, they're out mains, we've played them for a long time and we've played the game for a long time. The media tour gave us tonnes of information about the job changes and skills, so people can look at them and deduce what it means in terms of play. For people to have been wrong would have meant SE pulled something really unexpected.

In some cases, it's fair comment, like with Blue Mage, where we didn't know much about what Limited Jobs would entail - granted, Blue Mage had problems anyway, but I think in cases like that "wait and see" with a hint of scepticism is still a fair argument.

But there are things we did know and plenty of people who knew what they were talking about when it came to the media tour.

Regardless, I still gave it a chance on the off chance SE did do something different with the encounters (though it wouldn't have made a different for anything pre-ShB) and wanted to enjoy it, I found things that I did like and I could see the potential, but it still felt boring overall.


As for being in the minority. I've already accepted that my vision of Scholar could well be in the minority. I've discussed with Scholars who have differing opinions, I've spoken to ones who agree. I am totally okay with that. My vision of Scholar is the 2.0 one, but as an example I have a guy in my FC who fell in love with the 3.0 version, which already had some differences in how it played - at least in terms of what I got from it and what he got from it as we had some different ideas on how Scholar should be designed. There will be people who also fell in love with SCH at 4.0 and even 5.0. However, where I've compromised at is "don't make it monotonous".

If I have a lot of down time and my only options are to spam Broil or Art of War with the occasional Energy Drain or Biolysis then that's monotonous. I've even gone as far as suggesting instead of weaving DPS moves why don't we weave in debuffs instead or buffs - a little like AST already does. That's not my vision of Scholar, but I figured it'd be a compromise as SE seemed to want to give a simpler DPS rotation. So I offered something more supporty.

[Schan]

I still feel shifting the goal post is a fair description, maybe not put such a heavy weight on individuals, because that's unfair, but the point I was making, at each goal post we hit, somebody else comes along and then they set it somewhere else. I don't point it out for the sake of trying to illustrate a logical fallacy, but to highlight "this is not the first time".

So... generalizing an entire forum with different people who have different expectations is fair? From my point of view that is what is unfair, but I see your point. I just don't like the way you generalize it. Not everyone changed their minds and kept postponing their opinion.

I agree with everything else especially regarding the media. Doesn't really help that most "influencers" do not play Healer. Only Momo comes and mind aaaand he's a min-maxer so... he's doesn't really cut it for several people.

With that said I am advocating for people to complain and voice their concerns so keep doing a good job.

[Saefinn]

So... generalizing an entire forum with different people who have different expectations is fair? From my point of view that is what is unfair, but I see your point. I just don't like the way you generalize it. Not everyone changed their minds and kept postponing their opinion.

I'm not sure where I'm generalising an entire forum? My comment was simply "but people keep moving the goalpost on this one" & gave examples of different goal posts. Then I had to explain goalpost shifting as a concept in a follow-up post, because the response I got didn't make much sense.

"People" is indefinite. I was intentionally non-specific. I was addressing the overall "wait and see" argument, rather than a whole forum or even specific people, because each time we hit goalposts people set, we still get presented with the same argument, but with a different goalpost. The "people" here can be anyone at all and any number, because I've not specified any.

Maybe I'm personifying an argument too much? But it does feel like we're just arguing semantics.

[Schan]

I'm not sure where I'm generalising an entire forum? My comment was simply "but people keep moving the goalpost on this one" & gave examples of different goal posts. Then I had to explain goalpost shifting as a concept in a follow-up post, because the response I got didn't make much sense.

"People" is indefinite. I was intentionally non-specific. I was addressing the overall "wait and see" argument, rather than a whole forum or even specific people, because each time we hit goalposts people set, we still get presented with the same argument, but with a different goalpost. The "people" here can be anyone at all and any number, because I've not specified any.

Maybe I'm personifying an argument too much? But it does feel like we're just arguing semantics.

and how about people do both. I very much sit on the "wait and see" crowd. Doesn't mean I won't complain and keep bringing issues to light while I wait. One must keep themselves busy while they wait.

[Saefinn]

and how about people do both. I very much sit on the "wait and see" crowd. Doesn't mean I won't complain and keep bringing issues to light while I wait. One must keep themselves busy while they wait.

Absolutely no issue with people doing both. I’ve yet to see somebody refuse to the try healers with the new changes. I’ve already said I’ve given a SCH a chance. And with whatever changes SE may bring, we have little choice but to wait and see anyway.

But you’re not making these “wait and see” arguments as a counter argument to people’s complaints, but instead doing seemingly what most people who are complaining are doing. Complaining whilst waiting and seeing if the problems get acknowledged or fixed. However, the person I was responding to was making it as a counter argument.

[ArenWalter]

I do miss the DOTs but its not stopping me from playing SCH. The true essence of the job is still there. I do think the job was more engaging when you could manage all of those DPS abilities, I do agree that it is a bit dumbed down now.

[Deceptus]

I am much more inclined to say that they are working on it, but in order to get healing where it needs to be, homogenization of our healers was necessary..

As respectfully as possible, they've had 6 years to do something and the result is to break them completely. While other jobs move forward, we've had to start back from square one.

We didn't get a healer last expansion because they "needed to rebalance tanks and heals they currently have" and the current iterations are the result of that. Homogenized and boring.

I just think we really need to stop demonizing the dev team as far as healing goes.

Quite frankly, again 6 years in, as a healer the SE development team has lost my trust and they have to earn it back.

[Kinks]

... We didn't get a healer last expansion because they "needed to rebalance tanks and heals they currently have" and the current iterations are the result of that. Homogenized and boring. ...

amen. ._.
I miss my old scholar so so much that I don't really log in much anymore.
Tried WHM, its okay, but I still hate that I have to try other classes as a potential main cause they killed mine. ><

/ObligatoryPostOfUnhappyScholarSoTheyKnowI'mStillUpset

[Almostward]

I agree with you. There are those who keep saying we just need to wait, or the homogenizing of healers was necessary, but these devs had 6 years to work on them.

Now people are saying just wait till the next expansion. Then healers will be fun again, but how long do we have to wait all because the devs keep ruining our classes?

Also, if i had to guess when we get a new healer its going to be something so basic since that's what all the healers have become....basic