Have we given up on SCH?

[EaMett]

Besides, what I learned from (retail) WoW is that "harder world content" apparently means mobs have huge health pools but still hit like wet noodles so it takes five minutes to kill one. >.<

My memories of vanilla wow was that they hit pretty damn hard. To the point where aggro of more than 2 mobs ment running away or facing death. And that only got worse with higher levels or elites of course

[Wawachume]

My memories of vanilla wow was that they hit pretty damn hard. To the point where aggro of more than 2 mobs ment running away or facing death. And that only got worse with higher levels or elites of course

Yes, that's why I said "retail". I only played from late Cataclysm through Legion myself. The huge-health-pools method is a more recent thing.

[kobe-sabi]

I been a SCH since 2.0 it's been my favorite healer, but SE takes away spells, then give them back when we say we want that spell back, 2.0 to 3.0, 3.0 to 4.0,4.0 to 5.0 you would think SE would have sense enough to keep the spells we ask for, in the game. But no, they double down each expansion, we have been the Dot type damage dealer with shields as a heal, with a pets that can sub as an weaker WHM or a buffer . I loved SCH and i leveled it to 80 but i dount touch it, hell i dont touch any healer or tank job for exception of GNB.

[Brightamethyst]

Yes, that's why I said "retail". I only played from late Cataclysm through Legion myself. The huge-health-pools method is a more recent thing.

The giant health pools are mostly about letting people share quest bosses and rares. It's the only way to let them live long enough for multiple people to get kill credit. Normal mobs don't generally have that much HP.

It's like that in XIV too. A B rank hunk mark isn't hard to kill, it just takes forever, giving other people time to get there and help you kill it.

[Dzian]

People got quieter because in the last letter the devs pretty much dismissed sch having any issues. It’s crazy how a team that has done such a good job comlunicating with players on all manner of topics can drop the ball so bad with healers. I suspect that they’re getting frustrated not knowing how to balance healers and please players and it’s showing as just total apathy for the role. They really need to get some fresh blood on the team.

It's been obvious even since beta though. every design choice they've made since 2.0 has slowly backed them further and further into this dps corner they're in and now they have no room to do anything to set classes apart. thats why all the tanks and dps have been so heavily homogenized and everything is the same. they really can't do very much with anything unless they make some radical changes and push themselves out of the corner they're trapped in. this obsession with balance needs to be f*d off and bring back some diversity in jobs mechanics bosses and encounters in general.

There's a reason why people say every trial, raid, or boss fight in the game is exactly the same thing.
and the same reason every job is exactly the samee...

also why isnt my fairy named or in the party list so people can at least see where it is in the myriad of flashy effects. whispering dawn booom noone gets it cos theyre waaaayyyyy over there

[Saefinn]

It's been obvious even since beta though. every design choice they've made since 2.0 has slowly backed them further and further into this dps corner they're in and now they have no room to do anything to set classes apart. thats why all the tanks and dps have been so heavily homogenized and everything is the same. they really can't do very much with anything unless they make some radical changes and push themselves out of the corner they're trapped in. this obsession with balance needs to be f*d off and bring back some diversity in jobs mechanics bosses and encounters in general.

also why isnt my fairy named or in the party list so people can at least see where it is in the myriad of flashy effects. whispering dawn booom noone gets it cos theyre waaaayyyyy over there

I'm starting to think SE should perhaps look at a new "mode" to the game.

As you put it they've worked themselves in a corner and they got two problems to solve that are arguably at odds with each other. It also sounds like WoW found themselves in the same position.

On the one hand you've got balance.
On the other you've got a unique and fun gameplay experience.

Those who are most concerned with balance tend to be higher-end raiders who are playing with a competitive edge to try and get the best results and hit the top percentile of players. And those who aspire to be such. And people who may be more focused on content and clearing it, rather than the window by which they interact with it. So homogenisation in favour of balance may work for them as balance is more important here.
Then there's those who love RPG's, having job fantasy and variety of jobs to play to offer different interactions and experiences and varying play styles. For us the more variety there is and the more interesting the job is to play is more suitable here and balance is less important as long as we're not gimp to the point we're useless or that people with the wrong attitude kick us from runs.
I think a leaf could be taken out of PvP's book. Have a "Raider" 'mode' so to speak. Maybe it'll be the jobs more or less as they currently are. I think they could do two options here, make it only active for Savage and possibily extremes. Then all the balance focus could be isolated to certain content where you're still having fun. Outside of this, they could be a little more lax in terms of balance in favour of having the jobs work better for people to play.

When PvP did it, they only had to worry about PvP balance away from PvE balanced and I think created a better, more streamlined and fun experience for PvP without it impacting anything else. But in this case, I don't think a Raid PvE mode would need to remove anything from the current system, as it appears to be already be designed with PvE balance in mind and nobody would lose anything.

[Eloah]

I been a SCH since 2.0 it's been my favorite healer, but SE takes away spells, then give them back when we say we want that spell back, 2.0 to 3.0, 3.0 to 4.0,4.0 to 5.0 you would think SE would have sense enough to keep the spells we ask for, in the game. But no, they double down each expansion, we have been the Dot type damage dealer with shields as a heal, with a pets that can sub as an weaker WHM or a buffer . I loved SCH and i leveled it to 80 but i dount touch it, hell i dont touch any healer or tank job for exception of GNB.

Slightly confused what you mean/meant by 2.0 to 3.0. Nothing changed when HW dropped, ability-wise anyway. We just got new skills. I think there were a few tweaks here and there but basically nothing was removed. They need to look at what each expansion brought and what worked and what "failed" role skills, failed initially, now the concept is as it should of been, PvP changes were great, the upgrade system for skills, is decent, but could be a bit better, how I dunno, but it does feel like it's missing something. And the gauges, some that were added in felt lackluster if not downright useless, looking at you Lily system and heat gauge. They need to adjust it so that each job feel "complete" at 50 and then feels like its stronger from there, ironically MCH feels like that now. But most jobs dont feel complete until 60.

[Wawachume]

The giant health pools are mostly about letting people share quest bosses and rares. It's the only way to let them live long enough for multiple people to get kill credit. Normal mobs don't generally have that much HP.

It's like that in XIV too. A B rank hunk mark isn't hard to kill, it just takes forever, giving other people time to get there and help you kill it.

No, I mean---wasn't there at least one time in late WoD or Legion where they said they wanted to make the world "more challenging" and mostly just increased mob health pools?

(The rares and stuff, obviously, should have big health pools. That I get.)

[Dzian]

I'm starting to think SE should perhaps look at a new "mode" to the game.

As you put it they've worked themselves in a corner and they got two problems to solve that are arguably at odds with each other. It also sounds like WoW found themselves in the same position.

On the one hand you've got balance.
On the other you've got a unique and fun gameplay experience.

I think the issue is how they try and attain balance. Instead of attain balance through diversity and uniquness they insist on making every job be strong at everything and that's why they corner themselves. If you give jobs some actual distinct differences you can attain alevel of baalnce through variety and weaknesses.

To borrow from a recent thread, When you look at tanks back in Alex you had Paladin which was your solid physical damage tank but pretty lame at tanking magic damage. You had dark which was a solid magic tank but weak physical tank. And Warrior which was kinda of in between both. All distinctly different strengths and weakness and yet reasonbly balanced in terms of tanking capabilities. What then tipped the scales and got paladin screwed wasn't the way the jobs were designed but rather the way an entire tier of content was almost exclusively magic damage orientated. So instead of fix the content design they just went and made every job strong at everything and pushed themselves even further into the corner they're in.

Tanks happen to highlight this so well because they're at the front line of every encounter and it was obvious the direction the game was going in right back in early ARR when tanks started dropping fending gear for striking gear because staying alive was a joke and later swapping shield oath for sword oath. Later still completely laughing at the idea of the new tenacity stat. They can change jobs a thousand times but they wont get anywhere unless they sort the encounter designs out.

Same is true for healers. healing will forever be a joke as long as encounters are scripted and predictable and players know to the exact second when they will need to press Lustrate or ED or whatever.

and has even been true for dps where ogcd stuns, silences and even mobility tools like triple cast got spammed on cool down just for a minor dps increase. because they were rarely ever needed for there intended purposes.

making every job the same and every job strong at everything has all but cemented them into a corner which is again why so many people say every fight in the game is exactly the same thing..

[kobe-sabi]

Slightly confused what you mean/meant by 2.0 to 3.0. Nothing changed when HW dropped, ability-wise anyway. We just got new skills. I think there were a few tweaks here and there but basically nothing was removed.

SE removed some abilities from Selene, but they replaced them with more updated ones and rename them. i forgot i was angry when they did that, but i changed my tune when i saw they made 2.0 Selene better. Sry all i see is blood, this expansion has made me drop healing and War jobs i have enjoyed since i pick this game up in 2013.