Automatic Job Balance System

[LeoLupinos]

Would it be possible to implement a system that collects data from all encounters and changes the base damage of the Job automatically everyday differently for each relevant duty?

For now, I see that FFlogs is used by the players to judge if a Job has unbalanced numbers. Isn't this process the same for every time a Job Balance patch is implemented? And if it's always the same... Program it!

By adding a Trait (or invisible trait) to every Job that has a variable number that adds or subtract primary stats (INT/STR...) based on the data collected for each encounter, the dev team could put their time into other things and only focus on balancing Job internal potencies.

It would surely take time. But once it's done, it would be rewarding for everyone.

@Edit: Let's say the maximum potency per second BLM do is 100, and SAM is 99. This is the maximum these two Jobs will ever do on it's own.
Now, let's say Eden Savage every BLM still do a max of 100, but every SAM is doing a max of 96 because of the encounter design. The Auto balance system would buff SAM in order to reach 99 potency per second.
That's it. The success of this system entirely depends o how SE will program the data collection of it. Just by looking at FFlogs we can see that every encounter has different Job rankings, and this is because of the encounter design.

This can even be a not automatic system. But SE still needs to implement this feature to adjust inbalance of encounters between Jobs.

Disclaimer: Obviously, it is my humble example of implementation, and I'm aware of the level of spaghetti code FFXIV has. But even with spaghetti code FFXIV has some of the best systems of any MMO, and this could be another one. Since the game tend to follow the same formula for everything combat-wise, this system is imaginable, and I believe if anyone can imagine it, it can to be programmed.

Let's discuss.

[NekoNova]

What makes you think they aren't already doing this?
Pretty sure SE has the metrics to base their decisions on when tweaking jobs.

[LeoLupinos]

What makes you think they aren't already doing this?
Pretty sure SE has the metrics to base their decisions on when tweaking jobs.

Primarily because there's no official announcement of any system that automatically Balance the Jobs everyday. And the constant Job balance screams imperfection. And every encounter has different outcomes for Melee and Ranged. This system would allow to balance each encounter, allowing the dev team to create more diverse encounters.

[NekoNova]

Primarily because there's no official announcement of any system that automatically Balance the Jobs everyday. And the constant Job balance screams imperfection. And every encounter has different outcomes for Melee and Ranged. This system would allow to balance each encounter, allowing the dev team to create more diverse encounters.

What you're asking for is a machine learning system that automatically tweaks the potency of spells based on how classes are performing in raids?
Do you understand the implications and abuse potential of this if people get wind of such a system being in place?
Play BLM shit for a month before release of next patch, and it gets boosted.
Watch bosses melt due BLM damage in groups on launch of new content.








No.

[LeoLupinos]

What you're asking for is a machine learning system that automatically tweaks the potency of spells based on how classes are performing in raids?
Do you understand the implications and abuse potential of this if people get wind of such a system being in place?
Play BLM shit for a month before release of next patch, and it gets boosted.
Watch bosses melt due BLM damage in groups on launch of new content.

No.

I think you did not get any of it.
This is a system to change a variable of primary stat EVERYDAY differently for every encounter based on the data of every encounter of every Job. It's NOT learning, it needs to be highly scripted to only allow useful data. There's no possibility to abuse such a system where FFlogs exists, there will be always players that compete for the best DPS, and ppl that even don't know that this system exists and will play the job normally. I imagine if one is going to develop such complex program it would be smart enough to consider eliminating any form of abuse in the first place.

Do you really think everyone in this game will play BLM poorly in the same day, to be boosted in the next one? SE has their meta rotation, they can simply discard the data of the ones that are not doing the best potency per second.

The problem you said is the same thing as everyone come here to the forum, to say that BLM is bad, and the next patch it is buffed because everyone in the game asked for it. It simple will not happen.

[NekoNova]

you are either severely underestimating the lengths people will go to, to get advantages.
Or you are severely underestimating the complexity of the system you are describing

[LeoLupinos]

you are either severely underestimating the lengths people will go to, to get advantages.
Or you are severely underestimating the complexity of the system you are describing

You're right about how SE needs to handle and secure their systems and antiabuse measurements. But you're wrong by scrapping this idea for overreacting that SE does not have enough developers capable of creating a similar genius system with basic antiabuse parameters.

[Mystrum]

Would it be possible to implement a system that collects data from all encounters and changes the base damage of the Job automatically everyday differently for each relevant duty?

For now, I see that FFlogs is used by the players to judge if a Job has unbalanced numbers. Isn't this process the same for every time a Job Balance patch is implemented? And if it's always the same... Program it!

By adding a Trait (or invisible trait) to every Job that has a variable number that adds or subtract primary stats (INT/STR...) based on the data collected for each encounter, the dev team could put their time into other things and only focus on balancing Job internal potencies.

It would surely take time. But once it's done, it would be rewarding for everyone.

Disclaimer: Obviously, it is my humble example of implementation, and I'm aware of the level of spaghetti code FFXIV has. But even with spaghetti code FFXIV has some of the best systems of any MMO, and this could be another one. Since the game tend to follow the same formula for everything combat-wise, this system is imaginable, and I believe if anyone can imagine it, it can to be programmed.

Let's discuss.

Such a system as you describes would in its very essence create imbalance rather than correct it, I would also make the counter the comment on spaghetti code with the more your over complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.

From the perspectives of business, technical application, and design philosophy I would also say no to create this. Such a system could be described as an extreme form of homogenization in its worst application, and I put for that statement on a purely philosophical level. Never under any circumstances underestimate human will, nor a gamer’s ability to find ways to exploit and or use a system their advantage. Imperfection in job design in video games is by its very nature is as close to balance as game developers are going to get. However there is no “balance” only “imperfect application” in a purely balanced game everyone would have one button to press and the game would push it for you.

There is a rough target that SE sets for encounter design to both allow for completion of that content, and to allow for players to learn and grow their characters something critically vital to player investment. To all the players who actively work to better their characters spending their game time working out best in slot, materias, rotations, and fight optimization such a system would render that all moot on a daily basis. The system would require machine learning and adaptive AI to calibrate every job main stat due in no small part that invariably the same players are not going to be doing the same content every day. How would such a system account for the disparity between different players skill level across all of the jobs? How would it account for the varying item levels between each player and their jobs? How would it account for internet connection latency? It cannot simply be coded unless you set it so that everyone does the same outputs all of the time regardless of gear or effort which is completely opposite of what the suggested system to be for. The system you describe to fulfill the underlying objective of an “auto balancing system” would have to be able to adjust per encounter, during that encounter with a massive amount of variables in play for 4, 8, and 24 players in mind numbing number of server instances. OP you are asking for quantum levels of computing in a video game, and while I can empathize I have to say while your hearts in the right place, its beat is all wrong in this regard.

In conclusion FFXIV is not the world of Harrison Bergeron, and I am diametrically opposed to even the slightest application of an auto balancing system. It leads to nothing but stagnation and lazy design. If Murphy’s Law and Moore's Law have taught us anything it’s that one day we will have this system, and it will go horribly wrong but at least not for a good decade or two.

[Daranion]

Wait so let me get this straight. You want to add a system that adds more stats to underperforming classes per every trial and fight in the game and you want it to run this program once a day? Are you trying to make it so every class does the exact same damage?

[EaMett]

This solution also ignores that there are multiple skill tiers. Balance/unbalance from a meta perspective is mostly related to highly optimized play (what the jobs can potentially do) and not based around whether they are balanced in lower tiers of skill. It's much more complicated than just pulling numbers and automatically adjusting potencies.
For example, there might be a class mechanic that higher tiers of skill use 70% more often than lower tiers. Making any change to this mechanic to balance lower tiers will skew higher tiers. The real issue is that most skills are like this so you can't just balance a class by upping numbers randomly, you need a real method.

Want to boost dps for lower tiers of skill? If they have some dot or debuff you might consider increasing the duration of the debuff so that less skilled players are less likely to let it drop, and higher tiers don't get anything out of it other than quality of life (aka SMN changes in 5.08 for example). And that's one of many examples that don't involve potencies or straightforward buffs/nerfs.

This also doesn't take into account encounter design where some classes may underperform because of boss mechanics and not actual numbers.

All that to say that you need a humain brain behind it for the most part.