Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Vendalwind]

That's debatable though, I don't get what's so big brain about wasding to a boss' rear and then to their flank and back to their rear.

You really dont know do you? Try to maintain uptime during very first evil earth in e4. You can, but its tight af.

Try to avoid losing a single gcd while managing crumbling down and the flares.

Try having that debate because a healer who had the blue marker is standing in the square the still has melee uptime while you have to just sit there and stare cause they werent considerate or risk blowing both of you up.

Try having to avoid the bombs but stay a little closer and risk your toes if the tank doesnt move fast enough.

Try not being able to hit while the car mechanic goes off and having to debate whether breaking your combo or not is worth it for the ranged hit.

Try thinking about how your whole rotatiom gets altered for the fight when missing any of the above,

My point? You are broadly underestimating the extreme amount of micro decisions melee constantly have to make.

Ive said it before. Ranged does need to be buffed. But man if you think melee and them should be even.....

I play dnc too. Now i know dnc is maybe the easiest ranged class, i get that.
But when i play dnc my life is so incredibly stress free compared to playing Nin or Mnk. Like such that i can easlily maintain a constant movement while flitting about the whole field.


Try doing all of the above while having to think about perfect uptiming positionals as well


Ive posted this kinda thing before. But summing up range advantage as just "mobility" is a gross understatement.

[Vendalwind]

Honestly some melee even have near cast times via immobilities.

If range want the same dps as melee they need positionals AND a minimum range (ie they have to be outside of melee range to cast gcd) then the mechanics that force them inside that range will be similar in nature to the mechanics that force melee outside of range.

You could reduce kinda this requirement for somr large non positional bosses as well cause of some conflicts (titan maximum for example) leviathin would still need this tho as there is never outside of tsunami a moment where they couldnt be outside of melee range. You could bring the maximum range in closer to the center at some periods for big bosses.

[Akiudo]

Make melee doing same damage as ranged and there will be no point to play them, why so if they could go range and just ignore doing positionals and etc.

a 95% ninja missing every single positional (edit:aside from trick attack, a 1 minute cooldown attack you may aswell pair with true north if you are so unsure you will be able to hit it) would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

Edit:

Ohohoho that is SOOOOOO incorrect. A 95% nin missing every positional would include missing every trick. So no
Nin missing every positional would be out 2400 dps.

fair enough, i did miss trick attack completly in my calculation, not just the debuff but even the attack itself, mind you i didn't take you for the passive agressive sort, i'm only human and i may very well make a mistake if i skim trough data, but guess what ? trick attack has a minute cooldown, use true north before every trick attack and we are back at square one, even you will have to admit that THAT would not take skill

[Katie_Kitty]

You really dont know do you? Try to maintain uptime during very first evil earth in e4. You can, but its tight af.

Try to avoid losing a single gcd while managing crumbling down and the flares.

Try having that debate because a healer who had the blue marker is standing in the square the still has melee uptime while you have to just sit there and stare cause they werent considerate or risk blowing both of you up.

Try having to avoid the bombs but stay a little closer and risk your toes if the tank doesnt move fast enough.

Try not being able to hit while the car mechanic goes off and having to debate whether breaking your combo or not is worth it for the ranged hit.

Try thinking about how your whole rotatiom gets altered for the fight when missing any of the above,

My point? You are broadly underestimating the extreme amount of micro decisions melee constantly have to make.

Ive said it before. Ranged does need to be buffed. But man if you think melee and them should be even.....

I play dnc too. Now i know dnc is maybe the easiest ranged class, i get that.
But when i play dnc my life is so incredibly stress free compared to playing Nin or Mnk. Like such that i can easlily maintain a constant movement while flitting about the whole field.


Try doing all of the above while having to think about perfect uptiming positionals as well


Ive posted this kinda thing before. But summing up range advantage as just "mobility" is a gross understatement.

There's no denying that mechanics are easier for *physical* ranged and that's why they are asked to take on mechanics, but literally all of that is equally or more difficult for casters as it is for melee. The benefit of being ranged is nullified by the drawback of having to take on more mechanics when necessary. Casters are often asked to do the same, while still having to adjust more than phys ranged or arguably even more than melee, and yet nobody is saying RDM should do more DPS than ninja - In fact they say the opposite, that ninja should be superior simply on the basis of being melee.

Ultimately, all the roles are difficult in different ways, the idea that one role should inherently be more powerful than another is dumb.

[Vendalwind]

a 95% ninja missing every single positional would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

Ohohoho that is SOOOOOO incorrect. A 95% nin missing every positional would include missing every trick. So no
Nin missing every positional would be out 2400 dps.

[Vendalwind]

There's no denying that mechanics are easier for *physical* ranged and that's why they are asked to take on mechanics, but literally all of that is equally or more difficult for casters as it is for melee. The benefit of being ranged is nullified by the drawback of having to take on more mechanics when necessary. Casters are often asked to do the same, while still having to adjust more than phys ranged or arguably even more than melee, and yet nobody is saying RDM should do more DPS than ninja - In fact they say the opposite, that ninja should be superior simply on the basis of being melee.

Ultimately, all the roles are difficult in different ways, the idea that one role should inherently be more powerful than another is dumb.

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

[Katie_Kitty]

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

[Rika007]

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

[Vendalwind]

a 95% ninja missing every single positional (edit:aside from trick attack, a 1 minute cooldown attack you may aswell pair with true north if you are so unsure you will be able to hit it) would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

Edit: fair enough, i did miss trick attack completly in my calculation, not just the debuff but even the attack itself, mind you i didn't take you for the passive agressive sort, i'm only human and i may very well make a mistake if i skim trough data, but guess what ? trick attack has a minute cooldown, use true north before every trick attack and we are back at square one, even you will have to admit that THAT would not take skill

Sorry i shouldn't have been so passive aggressive there.
And true north definitely helps a lot with it, don't get me wrong. Also NIN seldom has moments where he has to hit two positional in different spots in a row. Which is where the difficulty of MNK (pre earth reply) came from when pursuing the double true rotation.
I actually really don't think the difficulty of melee comes from positionals for anyone except monk. It primarily stems from the melee distance and forced disconnects by other players errors or the raid itself, and trying to maintain that distance while doing already tightly timed mechanic movements.

I was just irked cause ignoring trick is really really big as a positional loss. And a lot of times you try to save true norths for moments you know you will be forced to miss a positional, (IE you use both charges for other things, because you don't expect to need it later and you are trying to optimize) so when a tank accidentally spins the boss or puts it out of position it can be frustrating, because some trick alignments have a mudra quad weave, and mug/bunshin weave before hand , OR just a Full TCJ (which also means standing absolutely still for 5-7 seconds) meaning you needed to know to use true norths about 6 seconds in advance. thus the window for being prepared for such mistakes is closed because of weave timing. You can double weave true north and then trick and true north will effect trick, but this loses you dps because trick takes a moment to apply and so the following gcd (often our most powerful gcd shadowfang) misses trick because of it.

[Vendalwind]

So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle
WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.