Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[CKNovel]

^this.

All classes and compositions should be able to clear all content, yes some will be able to do it quicker/easier than others but it should all be doable.

It's why I've always hated the idea of hard one shot enrage mechanics, it's basically "Congratulations you beat the mechanics but the timer says nah"

Soft enrage is always better compared to hard enrage as it at least gives those that get close opportunity to potentially finish up instead of "LUL DENIED".

So the team can die again and again and as long as they keep up they can clear? Or better, go with 4 healers and 4 tanks.
It's safer and you some mechanics won't one-shot you and if you need to res, you have 4 healers!
Enrage is here to punish multiple deaths, prevent cheesy comps and avoid cheesing challenges.

It's been done in 24 man raid, the challenge was mostly the length due to the lack of DPS from the team.
If you remove enrage, you also get rid of the challenge, remove the purpose of DPS jobs and allows anyone to cheese through the content.

But that's not the subject.

[ForteNightshade]

Here's how I've always looked at this:

Theoretically, if you put the bottom 5 in a group in front of EX or Savage content - ONLY the bottom 5 - could they clear it if they played at the high end of the median percentile for their jobs and followed mechanics?

If yes, but they'd struggle and need to be in the 75th to 80th percentile? - no changes needed.

If no unless they all play 100% perfectly and not even the 80th percentile gets them through a DPS check? - they need a boost.

SE does not intend to have ONLY those jobs in content. I understand that. However, the way I see it, if you wanted to make a premade with JUST the bottom 5 DPS jobs but you cannot because the content would legit be impossible, then something is broken. Done this way, other jobs' DPS doesn't even matter. It's a test as to whether these 5 jobs have enough oomph.

In other words, top DPS isn't everything to me, but I need to be able to clear content.

Except it does matter because any of the big three allow for more mistakes and potential mechanic skips, which in turn make things easier on the Healers and Tanks. Lets look at Voidwalker. The hardest part of that entire fight is Quietus. While you can kill him before he begins that phase with any composition, it's decidedly easier if you ran MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM or MNK/DRG/BLM and either SAM or NIN. Not only that because the BLM could straight up die or three people could get damage downs and you're still beating a World First caliber BRD. How would you classify this as anything but broken when half the jobs have a massive advantage over the others?

It's even worse for RDM and SMN who have zero purpose of existing outside prog. Once you know the fight, they're effectively useless since their only benefit is Raise; and unlike the Range, they don't have the gear excuse to fall back on.

[CKNovel]

Except it does matter because any of the big three allow for more mistakes and potential mechanic skips, which in turn make things easier on the Healers and Tanks. Lets look at Voidwalker. The hardest part of that entire fight is Quietus. While you can kill him before he begins that phase with any composition, it's decidedly easier if you ran MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM or MNK/DRG/BLM and either SAM or NIN. Not only that because the BLM could straight up die or three people could get damage downs and you're still beating a World First caliber BRD. How would you classify this as anything but broken when half the jobs have a massive advantage over the others?

It's even worse for RDM and SMN who have zero purpose of existing outside prog. Once you know the fight, they're effectively useless since their only benefit is Raise; and unlike the Range, they don't have the gear excuse to fall back on.

I'd like to bounce on this.
Remember Zurvan? Remember "skip Soar"?
What if an EX trial like this would happen and the balance is similar to what we currently have?

Simple, the lower jobs would be locked out.
Locked out jobs in content that must be farmed.

[JanVanding]

So the team can die again and again and as long as they keep up they can clear? Or better, go with 4 healers and 4 tanks.
It's safer and you some mechanics won't one-shot you and if you need to res, you have 4 healers!
Enrage is here to punish multiple deaths, prevent cheesy comps and avoid cheesing challenges.

It's been done in 24 man raid, the challenge was mostly the length due to the lack of DPS from the team.
If you remove enrage, you also get rid of the challenge, remove the purpose of DPS jobs and allows anyone to cheese through the content.

But that's not the subject.

Soft enrage: Boss builds up to a point they overwhelm you, hitting harder and faster with each passing second, slower teams can potentially get through the last percent or two before it's too much.

Hard enrage: Boss insta-kills as soon as they hit a certain time limit, no way to mitigate/counter or try to play through it.

That's the difference, so no, a soft enrage doesn't mean you could do 4 healers 4 tanks as you would still wipe as the percentage would be way too high for you to finish it off before being overwhelmed.

There should be an enrage mechanic, I'm just stating why I've never been a fan of hard enrage as it's always been a poorly conceived mechanic which forces the very thing we see, exclusion and elitism. It's difficult to blame players for the exclusionary mindset when Savage has such a strict enrage timer that taking anything less than META is seen as a handicap.

Hopefully it's a lesson for the Devs and they think about using more soft enrages than hard "Times up, start again" hard enrages.

Edit: In fact there are all sorts of clever ways they can implement soft enrages, such as removing your mana regeneration and greying out your ethers/mana regen skills, boss resistances growing to the point they become invuln, stacking, unremovable healing debuffs to the point you can no longer be healed and so on.

[SaberMaxwell]

Anything less than meta would be seen as the same "handicap," hard enrage or no.

[WalxAtNite]

I'm BRD main. I don't have any trouble with anything and nobody's ever called me out on my mad deeps (giggle), but then again, I'm still doing HW content.

In all seriousness, if I spend months learning this job and this game and then get excluded from content for no other reason than simply being BRD? Yeah. I'm not gonna be pleased with this game at all.

[JanVanding]

Anything less than meta would be seen as the same "handicap," hard enrage or no.

Only by the DPS Parse crowd and we all know what the Dev team thinks of people like that. For everyone else, viability would be based on role need as opposed to "WE NEED 4 BLM or 3 + SAM because Phat Deeps" The roles intended to have additional functions would actually be used more because their intended additional functions would be valued not ignored.

That's the true issue at heart, Eden Savage is a DPS race, DPS races encourage taking only the best DPS classes, so no RDM to make your Healers life easier, no DNC to provide group wide buffs and a bit of filler healing, heck I've even seen people talking about Excluding DRKs despite them having the best damn anti-tankbuster in the whole game in TBN because "They don't do as much DPS"

The Phat Deeps mindset needs to die, it's unhealthy.

[Katie_Kitty]

I'm BRD main. I don't have any trouble with anything and nobody's ever called me out on my mad deeps (giggle), but then again, I'm still doing HW content.

In all seriousness, if I spend months learning this job and this game and then get excluded from content for no other reason than simply being BRD? Yeah. I'm not gonna be pleased with this game at all.

So here's the thing about meta and endgame parties. Right now, everyone who plays anything besides a Melee job or Black Mage is actively holding back the party's DPS just because the gap between Melee+BLM and everyone else is so high. Does that mean you're going to be excluded from content? In some circumstances, from some parties, yes, but generally, no. I'll explain.

I play RDM. My job is going to be excluded before yours, and it's true that I've seen several PFs with my job locked out, but it's not something you see frequently. Bard, despite its relative weakness, has two advantages: First, it still receives some residual love from players who remember how Bard was a meta job for so damn long, that alone makes it unlikely to be locked out. Second, Bard has the advantage of being a physical ranged job which is actually pretty well-balanced within the role even as the role as a whole is very very weak compared to melee+BLM. 99.999% of parties are going to want one ranged physical job regardless because people who play those jobs are often used to perform mechanics that would be particularly annoying for melee or casters, and since Bard competes nicely against both MCH and DNC, there is no reason not to bring one. .001% of parties at best will want to bring a 2 melee + 2 BLM composition but frankly those parties are going to be statics, not pug groups you find in party finder.

I wouldn't worry about it, especially since ranged physical is likely to get a buff in 5.1

[Endariel]

Soft enrage: Boss builds up to a point they overwhelm you, hitting harder and faster with each passing second, slower teams can potentially get through the last percent or two before it's too much.

Hard enrage: Boss insta-kills as soon as they hit a certain time limit, no way to mitigate/counter or try to play through it.

That's the difference, so no, a soft enrage doesn't mean you could do 4 healers 4 tanks as you would still wipe as the percentage would be way too high for you to finish it off before being overwhelmed.

There should be an enrage mechanic, I'm just stating why I've never been a fan of hard enrage as it's always been a poorly conceived mechanic which forces the very thing we see, exclusion and elitism. It's difficult to blame players for the exclusionary mindset when Savage has such a strict enrage timer that taking anything less than META is seen as a handicap.

Hopefully it's a lesson for the Devs and they think about using more soft enrages than hard "Times up, start again" hard enrages.

Edit: In fact there are all sorts of clever ways they can implement soft enrages, such as removing your mana regeneration and greying out your ethers/mana regen skills, boss resistances growing to the point they become invuln, stacking, unremovable healing debuffs to the point you can no longer be healed and so on.

I see no difference whatsoever as you can set the endpoint of soft enrage at the same time as hard enrage and both will instakill you at this point.
If anything, hard enrage is easier to deal with than soft

[Dogempire]

75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

I mean that's fine, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want high skill to mean high contribution.

It's just dumb that you only need a 60th percentile monk to match the damage contribution of a 95th percentile machinist.

Especially since 95th usually means playing extremely well, almost perfectly, and in a BiS set or close to it, and 60th percentile is basically sloppy play but still above average with good gear.