Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Katie_Kitty]

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

[Vendalwind]

So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle
WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.

[Katie_Kitty]

So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

I did lmao. If you actually read my posts then you would know that. Trying to compare them and declare one more "difficult" than the other is BS from the getgo.

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.[/QUOTE[

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle

WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.

This entire section of your post is nonsensical and hypocritical. You don't get just to decide "This difficulty matters, but this difficulty does not." That's a joke and makes you look like a joke of a person who is only interested in downplaying phys ranged for whatever reason.

As a matter of fact, there is no universe in which being forced to adapt and react to a proc-based rotation is somehow simpler than a melee where your entire rotation is set strictly in stone and all you have to do is attribute it to muscle memory and perform it around the few mechanics you have to consider while playing. This is like saying playing Paladin is more difficult than Red Mage, which frankly is completely wrong. I can join up to a savage party on PLD at 4AM half-asleep and just go through the motions of my static rotation alongside the mechanics I have memorized and there is no adjustment, thinking, or anything else that would make it more complicated than doing the same savage fight as a red mage. Optimizing a proc-based job is, by definition, more difficult than any job with a rotation that is 90% static or more.

[Rika007]

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

[Vendalwind]

It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

A lot of what you say is correct. it is very fight dependent. BUT it is not ignorant to say such things. Ignorant is downplaying, being un-aware of, or outright ignoring, things that directly contribute to difficulty in an attempt to make one side of an argument seem more correct. Why do people always have to throw around assumptions about people's understanding or lack thereof? can you not just argue your points? My post is not ignorant. It literally concludes with a statement noting that it is not actually possible to reach a conclusion about Caster being more difficult than Melee or Vise Versa.

Even in E2 melee have a harder time by a distinct measure dodging the floating heads. And Casters have to move for their floating heads.
My point is: even in dummy fights there are small things that make melee, or caster, more difficult than ranged and can be clearly seen. Maintaining uptime during quietus cycle phases for example is a absolute chokehold nightmare to do perfectly.

So no, you can't say they are just as easy, cause even in those fights that are much more melee friendly we still frequently have to deal with tighter placements.

And before this goes too far Let me again say: I want to see the ranged buffed so they are only between 100-400 less dps than the weakest of the melee. I just disagree with the blatant misrepresentation of difficulty people attribute to the ranged Phys class. Melee and casters are more difficult to optimize fight specifically. this is pretty much a truth tho not an objective fact.

[Vendalwind]

snip.

Oh wow! So many opinions stated as fact! hyperbolic fact even!
perhaps you should go back and re-read my post before you keep proving you have terrible reading comprehension. (or terrible ability to extend subject matter into the sphere of what was being said, please consider BLM and MNK)

[Vendalwind]

Snip

Thank you for this. We needed this for sure.

I do realize (don't worry) some of your criticism is pointed at me.

However I would like to make a few opinion statements, while matching my credentials against yours. Please note these are opinion statements.

I have played NIN in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. He was my Main
I also played MNK in ARR and BRD, and SAM during Stormblood (on a different character)
I did not play any classes beyond sigmascape in Stormblood as I took a break from the game then.
The only Melee I have not played at Max lvl currently is DRG.
Currently in Shadowbringers I have also played DNC and MNK in at least one of the trials and through E2 each.

My least experience is most certainly with Casters however I have played with BLM a little on a friends account (just against a training dummy dont worry I wouldnt ToS ruin myself by playing another account i didnt own in any actual content) with the friend present. Additionally I indirectly know a lot of this friends difficulty as I have poured over videos of content to attempt to help him optimize because I am the leader of our static.
Casters are innately very tough to manage. because the choice of what spell to cast and when has a lot of micro-decisions involved in it such as knowing if it will enable a non-clip weave further down the line + immobility etc.

I PERSONALLY feel that my main NIN is by far the most difficult class. However I would say learning to Caster other than RDM right now is very very hard and I would put it on a similar lvl as a MNK without earth's reply.
SAM your professed melee job is I.M.O. the easiest of melee jobs, but I haven't played dragoon so i cant say for sure. But I can definitely say my feeling learning the classes was that SAMs optimizations and basics were exceedingly easy to learn and perform compared to perfecting NIN or MNK. (which lets be honest I haven't perfected either yet, but I do lurk alot EVERYWHERE on the balance discord so I know what perfections looks like)

My experience with bard was that it was fun with a few annoying things, but pretty much just free to do whatever it wanted in stormblood. And my experience with DNC is that its the absolute dang easiest thing to play in the game ever. Optimizing takes some skill yes, you have to learn to hold certain procs and feathers for optimization windows, but it really isnt very stressful even at that. In extremes and savages playing DNC was like a cool breeze on a beach compared to the hell scorn that NIN deals with.
And lets talk about proc based difficulty.
Unlike the melee and Caster exclusive difficulties; other classes also have proc based events that impact their class. BLM thunder procs? MNK chakras?

So I havent played MCH, or BRD specifically in shadowbringers. But i do have some experience. And my experience has taught me that ranged is far easier to play in so many ways than caster OR melee. I couldn't outright say melee is harder than caster cause SAM and possibly DRG are pretty easy. But I can outright say NIN is harder than BLM at the very least for me, at that DNC is the easiest thing I've ever touched, at the very least for me.

My final point: some of us do absolutely have experience with multiple roles. And it is true, making sweeping statements about a role is absolutely unfactual since variation in role is vast (SMN->RDM, MCH->DNC, NIN->DRG/SAM). But we can still state what we feel. It has long been my feeling that the difficulties all melee deal with, and the difficulties all Casters deal with, are distinctly harder to manage in real time than the not even unique random procs that ranged deals with.

AND I can tell you right now. If dancer was capable of doing as much per percentile dmg as NINja. I wouldn't be playing NIN right now because my static would force me into a DNC role. Why? because as a team dealing with two melees is far more difficult than one melee one caster two phys ranged, AND id probably more easily out DPS my NIN by far because playing dancer literally takes half the brainpower playing NIN does at current. So If DNC was as Strong as NIN (both high dps utility classes) I know for a fact I would be ostracized and called a burden by my static for choosing to play NIN. even tho Im a pretty dang good NIN. When SHB released I was parsing 75th Up on NIN. But no one cared because they knew I could do better as even a 10th percentile MNK. So I played Monk. Thus ranged really need a buff right now cause the drastic difference in damage is causing that same thing to occur, but it most certainly shouldnt be equal to melee or Caster DPS, at least in my opinion.

[Nedkel]

Stuff

The main reason why we assume melees are "harder" to play is because their mistakes cost them much more dps than ranged who could mess up a rotation.
On a ranged you may do a little less dps, but if you mess up your timings or rotation it wont hurt you as much as it does melees. If melee wont execute their rotation within certain amount of time or if he doesnt know the run and just mess up everything then no matter his little dps advantage he wont catch up to good bard or mch.

Everyone is basing their opinion on a savage content statistic, while its a statistic that has been taken primarly from organized static groups who are playing meta builds and who finish those savage raids successfully. In those static groups there is no rng element, people know what to do basically, they make a big part of the savage content statistics.
Now look at this


The differences are no longer as big as they are in savage content, you could clearly see the ceilling for melees jobs is bigger than other jobs, but median is not far away from median for ranged with few exceptions.

Now apparently BLM is no longer the best dps, also his performance is super vulnerable to the player made mistakes, just look at the minimum and size of the the middle bar. Now look at the minimum performance of machinist, its higher than all the other jobs despite this job having really high APM.
I dont argue against buff for bottom dps jobs, but against a buff that will put them at the same level as melee jobs because that will basically take us back to the past with stormblood melees jobs being borderline useless.

[Akiudo]

The main reason why we assume melees are "harder" to play is because their mistakes cost them much more dps than ranged who could mess up a rotation.
On a ranged you may do a little less dps, but if you mess up your timings or rotation it wont hurt you as much as it does melees. If melee wont execute their rotation within certain amount of time or if he doesnt know the run and just mess up everything then no matter his little dps advantage he wont catch up to good bard or mch.

Everyone is basing their opinion on a savage content statistic, while its a statistic that has been taken primarly from organized static groups who are playing meta builds and who finish those savage raids successfully. In those static groups there is no rng element, people know what to do basically, they make a big part of the savage content statistics.
Now look at this


The differences are no longer as big as they are in savage content, you could clearly see the ceilling for melees jobs is bigger than other jobs, but median is not far away from median for ranged with few exceptions.

Now apparently BLM is no longer the best dps, also his performance is super vulnerable to the player made mistakes, just look at the minimum and size of the the middle bar. Now look at the minimum performance of machinist, its higher than all the other jobs despite this job having really high APM.
I dont argue bottom dps jobs are indeed in need of a small buff, but nothing that would make them better than melees because that will basically take us back to the past with stormblood melees jobs being borderline useless.

problem with that kind of statistic is that you are taking the floor and the ceiling and arguing in a way as if both are of equal worth aswell as necessarely saying the same thing. taking your own picture just look at bard compared to samurai/dragoon, all three of these classes have their floor at nearly the same point,being a terrible bard you will do basically as bad as a terrible dragoon/samurai, yet their ceiling is about twice as much ahead of bard then even the median range, now what does that tell us ? yes, you could argue melees are harder to optimise, but as it stands, even with the normal mode statistics you linked, where there is done jack shit for optimization they are still ahead even at the bottom, and optimization obviously is allways possible.

the fact that the ceiling is so far ahead while the floor is nearly equal can mean three things,

A) it is harder to be a good melee/Bad ranged
B) it is easier to be a bad melee/good ranged
C)a combination of these two.

the important part here is that A) and B) are not the same. it being easier to be "decent as a physical ranged" does not prove in itself that it is easier to be good at it compared to a melee, without in depth class knowledge, which most people lack.
So yes, it is possible to mean having high uptime and hitting positionals is harder than basically being glued to your hotbars watching for proccs 24/7 without forgetting the next mechanics but it may just aswell mean that fucking up completly if you are just plain bad is easier on melee while if you are even decent it is actually equally hard.

look at the median range for monk, not the dps but the actual range of it, its basically equal to bard in length only very slightly longer , as you yourself pointed out that the extremely long "median range" for blackmage implies it is hard to optimize and prone to error this would in return mean an "equal" median range implies about equal error proneness, it would also mean redmage is about as hard as any melee sans ninja, yet people hail it as the easiest caster by far, how come ?

the fact of the matter is that skill floor does not necessarely corrolate 1:1 to skill ceiling, a class may be easy to be decent at, yet hard as nails to bring to perfection, and for all this "people *cough* crazys *cough* want the easy phys ranges to deal as much as the hard melees" the whole "melees need to have 500~ dps up on them to be worthwhile" is the exact same thing in reverse, its "give them enough of a leg up so even the total fuck up melees are equal to the total fuck up ranges".