Storm's Eye Is a Chore

**Lyth** · 09-15-2019 03:45 PM

Is there a way to apply Goring in AoE situations? It always seemed to me that Eye, like Goring, was just a way to get you to press 4 instead of 3 (ooh, technically complex) every couple of combos as a way of differentiating the jobs.

In previous expansions, you wouldn't try to maintain Eye in AoE, and your damage would be balanced around that fact. I think the problem that they've run into here is that you'd potentially have a two step combo that gives you Eye against multiple targets, so you may find some creative individuals using it for a faster ramp up in single target as well. Some solutions are either to create a three step combo in AoE for Eye, or just ignore it like in previous expansions and remove the possibility of sustaining it, with AoE damage being adjusted accordingly.

**Shurrikhan** · 09-15-2019 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lyth

Is there a way to apply Goring in AoE situations? It always seemed to me that Eye, like Goring, was just a way to get you to press 4 instead of 3 (ooh, technically complex) every couple of combos as a way of differentiating the jobs.

In previous expansions, you wouldn't try to maintain Eye in AoE, and your damage would be balanced around that fact. I think the problem that they've run into here is that you'd potentially have a two step combo that gives you Eye against multiple targets, so you may find some creative individuals using it for a faster ramp up in single target as well. Some solutions are either to create a three step combo in AoE for Eye, or just ignore it like in previous expansions and remove the possibility of sustaining it, with AoE damage being adjusted accordingly.

That would be fine. In a way, just losing the feeling obliged to do something that feels so awkward during dungeon AoE would probably be enough, just as with Disembowel on DRG.

But, just personally, I'd rather see it be applicable in AoE situations (and ideally as something distinct from the A-B-A-B spam every tank has). That's not with the purpose of making it unique, to be clear: I'd just as soon have PLD freed from just using A-B-A-B (and C-C-C-C-C during Req) spam in AoE as well.

**Quor** · 09-15-2019 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would be fine. In a way, just losing the feeling obliged to do something that feels so awkward during dungeon AoE would probably be enough, just as with Disembowel on DRG.

But, just personally, I'd rather see it be applicable in AoE situations (and ideally as something distinct from the A-B-A-B spam every tank has). That's not with the purpose of making it unique, to be clear: I'd just as soon have PLD freed from just using A-B-A-B (and C-C-C-C-C during Req) spam in AoE as well.

I'm torn on the issue of tank combo complexity. On the one hand, I get it, more complex means more potential for fun via a higher skill ceiling. But the problem with this is that people (rightly) believe that a more complex, complicated rotation should yield commensurate reward. After all, if something takes more work to do correctly, it should be more rewarding when it's pulled off.
This creates a major problem however, as it clearly differentiates one job from another, and this results in major balance problems. After all, if a job is more complex to play, then it should reward such proper complex execution somehow. With tanks we're limited to damage mitigating and damage dealing as rewards for proper kit execution. A good example that balances this would be TBN for DRK; you get the direct reward of absorbed damage plus Dark Arts buff, plus the indirect reward of healers needing less GCD's to heal someone, thus contributing more damage to the group overall. DRK, for compensation, is on the lower end of the damage dealt by tanks along with the simplest basic combo. Thus, the meta-challenge with DRK is less about rotation optimization (this is still important to do correctly, just the skill ceiling is fairly low) and more about mitigation optimization via TBN to free up healer GCD's.

Which is great. It gives DRK a unique flavor, and when I'm on DRK I have a drastically different mindset then when I'm on, say, GNB. GNB's big challenge is less about watching over the raid like Batman with a big ass sword and more about fitting as much explosive damage into their No Mercy window as possible, with a healthy side of double-weaving because RIP AND TEAR. It's rotational complexity is arguably the highest of all the tanks, and it gets commensurate DPS reward as a result. PLD also has greater rotational complexity, with two damage phases and a pair of DoT's to manage in place of carefully-timed double-weaves and GCD-to-GCD resource management.

Anyway, to wrap this up, the balance we have between the tanks right now is pretty spot on. No one tank is so far ahead or behind that you end up invalidating one or more of the others. Thus, any little change could potentially throw something out of whack. I've been thinking of ways to potentially address the SE-during-AoE issue, but everything just ends up with WAR and DRK being even more similar than they are now. If you put it on an oGCD then that's just like darkside buff for DRK, and if you keep it as a combo then you still run into the issue of having the "speed bump" of applying SE via the combo before engaging in your normal aoe rotation. If anything, just give WAR a passive that activates when fighting 3+ mobs at the same time. This would give WAR +10% damage and won't stack with SE. Have the timer constantly refresh to maximum until less than 3 mobs are present (game reads as "has the most aggro with") at which point it begins to tick down normally. SE is still required for 1 and 2 target fights, WAR gets their damage buff normally, and on pulls of 3+ where the WAR has aggro on at least 3 of those mobs (like 4-man's) then the buff triggers and it's basically SE minus the speed bump.

**Shurrikhan** · 09-16-2019 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Quor

I'm torn on the issue of tank combo complexity. On the one hand, I get it, more complex means more potential for fun via a higher skill ceiling. But the problem with this is that people (rightly) believe that a more complex, complicated rotation should yield commensurate reward.

That's only an issue if the reward is to maximum sustained rDPS, rather than serving only to address practical (albeit them still rDPS-affecting) concerns brought by the initial complexity being improved upon as it should be.

A DRK, for instance cannot waste DoT potency except via Living Shadow, and finds its damage buff nigh impossible to drop, whereas DoT damage is a rarely challenged but frequent mechanic of DoT, and the damage buff a rarely challenged but frequent mechanic of Warrior. If allowing for smooth and competitive (and, as a byproduct, entertaining) integrations of normally single-target skills into AoE makes those challenges a matter of skill instead of happenstance or a least worst solution (do I waste Storm's Eye duration due to forced downtime or skip Storm's Eye duration by using it when I get back), you still only make Warrior better able to keep to the higher sustained dps its already balanced around. The same goes for Paladin and Goring Blade.

The result of that increased complexity (read: control added to already existent complexity) would be tightened balance, whereby fights have less of an unavoidable negative impact on any particular kit.

**Lyth** · 09-16-2019 03:29 AM

Let's be honest with ourselves. In the broader scheme of gaming in general, MMOs are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to mechanical complexity, marginally ahead of turn-based strategy games and building simulation games. What we really depend on is fight complexity with interesting mechanics to puzzle out. Does it really matter if you're pressing 3 then 4 after performing the same rotations for a few hundred hours? Not really. You're still capable of mashing out the same rotation in a semi-conscious daze.

The problem with tanking isn't a job action design problem. It's a fight design problem. The people who design these fights come up with very interesting mechanics from a dps perspective, but they have next to no understanding of how a fight is experienced from a tanking perspective. Tanks are not frontal positional dps that memorise 4 extra timestamps for tankbusters that we just alternate invulns on. The core of tanking is positioning. And when you have bosses that auto-position themselves, or worse, the standard big boss that sits at the edge of an arena and can't even be re-positioned if you tried, you kind of take the interesting bits out of tanking. We haven't had a properly designed fight from a tank perspective since Heavensward.

As for Eye in AoE: you could do something based off of Decimate, similar to how Fated Circle on GNB acts like a '3' to their 1-2 AoE combo.

**BloodRubyXII** · 09-19-2019 04:15 PM