So...DRK kinda sucks now.

[Quor]

Can we have both Damage Up and Haste instead?

As it stands now - thanks to the removal of TP as a limiting factor - dmg and haste % are functionally identical. One gives 10% more damage while the other allows 10% more attacks. Assuming 100 potency baseline over 10 attacks in X period of time, 10% damage increase means 110 potency for 10 attacks which equals 1100 potency total. Assuming the same potency but with 10% haste, you get 11 attacks of 100 potency over X period of time, for a total of 1100 potency total. The devil would be in the details; more attacks means more chances to proc dhit or crits, while harder attacks will have higher dhit/crit values when they do proc. Mixing the two makes for some really strong synergy, and can get out of hand very quickly. Assuming 10% dmg and 10% haste in the above example, you'd get 11 attacks over X period of time at 110 potency apiece, for 1220 potency total. Hence, adding 10% haste to Darkside along with the 10% dmg will result in roughly a 10% raw damage increase to DRK as it stands now. This would put it far and away above the other tanks for dps.

[cactuarzzzz]

As it stands now - thanks to the removal of TP as a limiting factor - dmg and haste % are functionally identical. One gives 10% more damage while the other allows 10% more attacks. Assuming 100 potency baseline over 10 attacks in X period of time, 10% damage increase means 110 potency for 10 attacks which equals 1100 potency total. Assuming the same potency but with 10% haste, you get 11 attacks of 100 potency over X period of time, for a total of 1100 potency total. The devil would be in the details; more attacks means more chances to proc dhit or crits, while harder attacks will have higher dhit/crit values when they do proc. Mixing the two makes for some really strong synergy, and can get out of hand very quickly. Assuming 10% dmg and 10% haste in the above example, you'd get 11 attacks over X period of time at 110 potency apiece, for 1220 potency total. Hence, adding 10% haste to Darkside along with the 10% dmg will result in roughly a 10% raw damage increase to DRK as it stands now. This would put it far and away above the other tanks for dps.

Assuming if you can land the 11th hit in a row without getting interrupt and all 10 hits have same potency?

[FallenWings]

Personally I would rather more oGCDs to press. A haste buff instead makes Double Weaving incredibly more difficult/impossible for most which is a DPS loss in the end. DRKs speed being more intense double weave oGCD windows instead of a slightly faster 1 2 3 (4) is more fitting, especially with how hard and often DRK strikes in oGCD.

Also greatswords being faster GCD compared to GNB or PLD is :think:.

20CD "Low Blow", 30CD Dark Passenger ontop would align with DRKs per minute frenzy window, adding 2 more in said window and give 3 more presses inbetween said windows.

[waterboytkd]

Also greatswords being faster GCD compared to GNB or PLD is :think:.

Eh. DRKs are already speccing for more SkS than PLDs usually do. If DRK being able to whip his greatsword around slightly faster breaks your immersion, then it should probably already be broken.

I really like this idea of a haste buff instead of flat damage, it'd help with BW and Delirium windows (especially the former). It also means we regenerate mana and self heal at a faster rate. The former there is the big one. That means more Edges.

It gets tricky though. A 10% haste buff means our weaponskills dps stays the same as now (but our AoE dps goes up!). But, our oGCD dps goes down. We get, what, 8 Syphon Strikes per minute? 8.33 with a 2.4s GCD. So 4800-5000 mp per minute. This would only buff it by 480-500 mp per minute...So you might have to go up to 15% to make up for the lost 10% buff on our oGCDs. But that does start making it hard to double weave.

The only problem I have with more oGCDs is that it'll really just make our openings even more hectic. If the oGCDs we have now had lower cooldowns, that could help keep us be more busy in the last 45s of each minute, but not much more busy. AD and CnS with a 30s recast would be amazing. SE with a 45-60s cooldown would be sweet, too.

[DRKoftheAzure]

What if Darkside was a Haste buff instead?

From a DPS standpoint Dark's mostly GCD based (As edge / flood are resource based, so more resource via haste = more floods) and would only lose slightly in Plunge, Salted Earth, and Abyssal Drain, and Carve and Spit.

Technically Delirium.

But then you change a +10% damage to +15% haste and it still comes out to a small net gain for numbers, but the "Feel" should be more satisfactory.

On the topic "feeling of the class/job"; I feel like I'm playing as a level 30 Dark Knight at level 80, and I should not feel that way at level 80 on any given class/job, and making Darkside give 20% damage up and haste would bump that level feeling by 10 levels but that's still half of what I feel Dark Knight is actually doing. Though I am more than likely the 0.0000000001%(or whatever the actual % is) of people who feel and think that way...

[Quor]

Assuming if you can land the 11th hit in a row without getting interrupt and all 10 hits have same potency?

Over time, all hits have the "same" potency in that what matters is average potency per GCD. A 10% haste effect over the course of 10 hits doesn't sound like much, but over the course of a 13 minute fight where you're doing potentially a few hundred GCD's (average GCD's per minute at 2.38 GCD is is 25.2) in a fight, suddenly having 10% more is a big deal. Assuming our above 13-minute fight we get about 330 GCD's. With 10% haste, that amounts to another 33 GCD's, which in turn amounts to more SS's meaning more MP meaning more Edge's on top of more blood meaning more BS in that time frame compared to what we have now. It's a rough estimation, but over a long period of time 10% haste amounts to about the same thing as 10% more damage. I'm all for making DRK the faster-attacking tank, but adding a flat 10% haste buff would be incredibly OP. Tank damage balance is nice and tight right now. Maybe swap off the %dmg for %haste, but both at once? That'd be too much.

[Satarn]

From what I understand, people want generating recourses to be much easier than it is now (At the moment our source generating window is very tight).
I can agree to that. But disagree about reworking DRK entire kit. It is fun to play when you max out your resources.

We don't want easier resource generating, just more of it(and some meaning to what you spend it on, like having to actually keep an eye on Darkside).

Faster MP generation doesn't make it easier - you still lose out on resources and thus dps if you miss your generators. In fact with more resources, you add a risk of losing out on those if you overcap due to not spending them at a steady rate, while right now screwing up by overcapping is pretty much impossible.

There isn't even that much consequence to overspending really, aside from not having enough for TBN or raid buffs, because using MP at all twice per minute, will keep your Darkside going and your MP should be full after that one minute, which is more than enough for another two of literally whatever.

What would be good, would be still having those hyper-active windows where you can kinda "go ham" on your resources in raid buffs, but also add more activity in between them, both APM and MP management-wise. That's what SB DRK was like, just with too much focus on DA-only. This should be fixed by adding more priority spenders, like a dedicated Darkside upkeep ability and high-potency CnS.

Fast generation makes sure you don't want to overcap, priorities make sure you don't want to bottom out and you get yourself some actually engaging resource management.

Personally I would rather more oGCDs to press.

Okay, but why not both? I like the sound of "both".

[aqskerorokero]

If you were like those crybabies who asked for Dark Art change, stop complaining, you guys wanted this way.

[shao32]

if ppl wanted this way they won't be complaing and everyone will be happy in the first place.

[FallenWings]

Okay, but why not both? I like the sound of "both".

I'm very hesitant with haste buff on DRK because of the implication on it making double weaving very difficult. As it is, being a bit far away from the datacentre makes double weaving unreliable 50% of the time and I frankly very enjoy the current iteration of DRK being a double weave burst monster. The feeling of "speed" on DRK is very much present to me with the frantic quad double weaves per minute and even at a fantasy pov, DRK striking so many times quickly with a greatsword in a short window is there.

If however with the haste buff the game was either more client sided or the force lock was shorter like Mudras letting 100+ ping players have a chance at double weaving then I would welcome it.