So after waiting for about 2 weeks to see the consequence of homogenization

[CrimsonGunner]

forgive me for saying but all this talk about replacing a job with another just cause it isn't top dps for raid is bullshit and you know it.
it shouldn't matter that much what job u take as long as you fill your roll as dps/healer or tank.
the job doesn't have to be the number 1 tank or top healer or even compile of top dps rolls to clear a raid.
all you need are good people that know and can do their job WITH THE JOBS THEY WANT.
it isn't the job that makes it great its the players,and as most said they don't want their favorite job to lose its unique kit to be the same as everyone else just cause some jerks want all be same for 1 part of the content and will ban people cause their jobs aren't the leading top of their roll.
when we play FF 14 we want to play the job we love and have the kit that truly represent the job w/e being meta or top on its roll.

so to all of you,who care only on rDPS and numbers and give shit to the "lower" jobs and want every other job to be the same i have one thing to say.IF YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT DPS NUMBERS THEN JUST SWITCH TO THE CURRENT TOP JOB AND STFU. all FF14 content is available to all jobs and we will play them with whatever job we want ,just cause its hard content doesn't mean you must have the best jobs to clear it ,you just need good party members.

[Miziliti]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

If you want to talk about homogenization on DPS role, you should go see the tank and healer roles. Tanks got same 123 combo and same mitigation kits via role skills. Healers got 1 dps spell and 1 dot to play with.

On DPS roles, each job at least retains their unique core gameplay to differentiate with each other. While some are pure dps and some are hybrid support, the current damage output gap between jobs are in a total mess.

I don't care if BLM, MNK, and DRG are top in damage department. The problem is the damage gap between the three and the rest is so large to the point it makes no sense.

To help visualize the gap for example:

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest
(rough sketch, but you should get the idea.)

Every ranking system is bound to have few at the lower part of the list, but being lower doesn't need to mean being shitty. Who says the rest jobs are fine is delusional.

Caster rank for example:

BLM >>>>> SMN >>> RDM

You see the problem? Not only RDM is the last, it is currently getting rejected by majority. The gap between BLM and SMN is still too large.

Then there is the imbalance among job's personal dps and utility. DRG/MNK all have party buffs to bring and yet they both do higher damage than SAM who has zero party utility. NIN on the other hand have utility via trick attack, but is in the worst situation due to having low personal dps with a utility that could not make up for it.

Though not as bad, DNC is in the same situation:

BRD > MCH >>>>>> DNC

DNC's single and party buffs could not make up for the low personal dps it brings, thus gets rejected. MCH, being the pure dps of physical range jobs, should be dealing better damage, yet BRD seems to be better and have battle voice.

Some jobs, whose strength lies in the utility they bring to the party, are getting rejected because their personal damage is too low to compete with those who are at the top.

The current balance is a huge mess. Probably the worst I've seen.

[CrimsonGunner]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

Damage output can always be address by SE managing potentiates,CD,costs and worst case remove/add an effect from/to skill.

it isn't apples and oranges cause the feedback's made by those that wanted the job to be similar to another cause of rdps is probably one of the reasons that pushing homogenized on the gameplay of the jobs.

you mention healers and tanks homogenized,one of the reasons i read that causing this situation is because the feedback's were "our x job need to have the same ability as z job for raids" and SE probably interpret that as excuse to homogenized the roles,instead of offering a different and unique solution to a job and give it something that the others don't have to compensate.
it might not be a large contribute for SE decision but it helps to push sad status on the jobs.

i agree that the damage between jobs is wide and must be address to reduce that gap but just cause they have lower pdmg doesn't mean you cant clear a raid with them or they should be banned from parties cause they are at the bottom right now.

what makes a job fun is its unique play-style and kit,just cause it doesn't offer a utility as another job with the same role doesn't mean it must have their utility.
i agree, balance is a huge mess right now that must be address because its causes certain jobs getting rejected from parties.
it only fuels more of feedback's of "why aren't our job same as that one" or "give us same skill as that" which in truth i believe most of the people say that only cause they want to do raids with the job they love and not getting banned from party just because the jobs they play.

[Vulcann]

the problem is this game is going the WoW route where everything is raid or die and so of course classes are going to homogenized ... because you have to for raid content. everything needs to be optimal or else it is thrown to the wayside.

what this game needs is more interesting ways to progress your characters besides JUST raiding. i think building on the Trust system could really open up the game if the community would allow it (which i doubt from the attitudes i have seen already)

[Drayos]

Sacrificed all utilities is pretty much homogenized. It's like saying AST sacrifice all types of cards into dmg buff cards so that it is not more powerful than whm.
And BRD give all the buff and utilities away to DNC just so that we become a DPS ditcher like MCH with useless utilities is not homogenization?

You can say RDM is not sacrificed whatsoever. They barely touch anything on RDM how it is from Stormblood and now they are in in Shb with 1 ability for displacement with no jump back, abit of enhanced potency, a melee attack to adjust mana, one extra verflare/holy combo.

If RDM was to be homogenized to be like any other DPS...let's see, how would you feel they remove Verraise/vercure away? RDM now only just do dmg, no jump, no engage, no double mana but generate mana more through skils, just do dmg. hmm, yay homogenization!

i think u mistake my argument here.

Im saying the veritable Still exists, Do i think it was right No, if any of the three were gonna take the mid support role it shoulda been Dancer, and it should have been given Defensive Utility to serve another purpose then bard Instead of Replacing its Role.

but THis would have put Dancer in the same Progmeme Status as RDM, which Players have fought against.

this game Support wise has Never been good, Theres No NEED for vercure, because Healers DONT need support Healing through content, Its unnessercary and beleiving the playerbase wil suddenly change their opinons Is not likely, its Not a Applicable role in the game, and While Yes its fixable i dont think the playerbase would want it, if they keep stacking Support jobs they're going to need to Expand group sizes to 6 To fit a Support role into the actual Game.

this is fine, and imho a good Idea, just put the Support role into the Actual Game. and Make a new Role called Support and Move jobs like RDM and Dancer to that part, but to make that role viable it has to be in demand, which then would require healing nerfs and More to REQUIRE the additional healing and Defensive Utilitys from this New Role to cope with mechanics. which would Likely be unwelcome.

homogenization isnt whats causing the issue (bards Lore wise etc etc it is) but in the big picture Raid Wise setting aside those things its Not, the problem is They've Powered 4 Jobs to be above 2000 DPS over the Rest and Expected it to somehow work, while Simplifying most Jobs added Quantities of Complexity to Two Jobs and Expecting no problems to come.

but stacking Support jobs in their existing roles, Increases homogenization Too.

if bard and Dancers became 2 support Jobs in 1 Roles, their playstyles will likely overlap, and the Jobs would come down to a "do u want to Support by Dancing or Do u want to Support with Music". that Dilema is Equally as homogenizing as Reducing it. the point isnt "well they both could exist, you could have them add different things is Irrelevent, they'll calculate the RDPS Value of each of them and Exclude the Lower Veritable, thats What players do, its what theory crafting Meters and FFLOGs cause. if they Equal them out in RDPS Value it goes back to my first question. as ur no more powerful in any reguards which ever u pick because they're both the same Value.

and while it homogenized bard Specifically it Didnt homogenize the Actual Role itself, because the Support Options Still exist. the Differences in Playstyles and Individuality still Exist. and they havent Meshed at all, trying to call Bard a MCH with Less DPS is Ridiculous, they're nothing alike in actual Playstyles and their focuses are very different. Bard didnt change from a Playstyle point of View. its Demand in a Support role did.

TL;DR:

No, i dont agree with the fact Bards got gutted to Facilitate a New Job, their are other Measures they could have taken such making Dancer Closer to a Ranged physical version of RDM bringing Defensive utility. but i understand the Problems currently in the RDM Kits to know Why they prolly didnt strive for this concept, I understand on a Job bases bard did become more homogenized for this as it become closer to a Flat DPS, but i dont beleive MCH and bard Play Simular reguardless and are individual in what they do even if they bring the same thing (DPS) due to the Fact RDPS has always been included in DPS Numbers, its Simply a Different Format. not a Completely didnt objective to begin with .

[Tenryou]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

If you want to talk about homogenization on DPS role, you should go see the tank and healer roles. Tanks got same 123 combo and same mitigation kits via role skills. Healers got 1 dps spell and 1 dot to play with.

On DPS roles, each job at least retains their unique core gameplay to differentiate with each other. While some are pure dps and some are hybrid support, the current damage output gap between jobs are in a total mess.

I don't care if BLM, MNK, and DRG are top in damage department. The problem is the damage gap between the three and the rest is so large to the point it makes no sense.

To help visualize the gap for example:

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest
(rough sketch, but you should get the idea.)

Every ranking system is bound to have few at the lower part of the list, but being lower doesn't need to mean being shitty. Who says the rest jobs are fine is delusional.

Caster rank for example:

BLM >>>>> SMN >>> RDM

You see the problem? Not only RDM is the last, it is currently getting rejected by majority. The gap between BLM and SMN is still too large.

Then there is the imbalance among job's personal dps and utility. DRG/MNK all have party buffs to bring and yet they both do higher damage than SAM who has zero party utility. NIN on the other hand have utility via trick attack, but is in the worst situation due to having low personal dps with a utility that could not make up for it.

Though not as bad, DNC is in the same situation:

BRD > MCH >>>>>> DNC

DNC's single and party buffs could not make up for the low personal dps it brings, thus gets rejected. MCH, being the pure dps of physical range jobs, should be dealing better damage, yet BRD seems to be better and have battle voice.

Some jobs, whose strength lies in the utility they bring to the party, are getting rejected because their personal damage is too low to compete with those who are at the top.

The current balance is a huge mess. Probably the worst I've seen.

I like this post but i kind of wanna joke about this line

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A SUPPORT?THOSETHINGSAREDEADBIGDPSMETAONLY>>>>>>>>>>>ninja


Real talk tho i think you did a good job summing it up visually. I'm fine with no utility classes have a Slightly higher dps than a synergy dps class. However i think SE believes monk and dragoon are selfish dps still and dnc rdm and nin do so much for the party it's game breaking.
I can't understand what happened at all this patch

[OmegaStrongtan]

I like this post but i kind of wanna joke about this line

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A SUPPORT?THOSETHINGSAREDEADBIGDPSMETAONLY>>>>>>>>>>>ninja

kek. as a DNC main I can say "At least I am not Ninja"

[RadicalPesto]

so to all of you,who care only on rDPS and numbers and give shit to the "lower" jobs and want every other job to be the same i have one thing to say.IF YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT DPS NUMBERS THEN JUST SWITCH TO THE CURRENT TOP JOB AND STFU. all FF14 content is available to all jobs and we will play them with whatever job we want ,just cause its hard content doesn't mean you must have the best jobs to clear it ,you just need good party members.

Surely you understand though, that a lot of this complaining comes from people who would like to play, say, Red Mage, but do not feel its fair that a Red Mage needs to play to the level of skill of the 90th percentile merely to do the same damage as a 40th percentile, mediocre Black Mage player, all while still being told their class is too easy to deserve being buffed. It would probably be less bad if the first raid of this expansion didn't have harsher DPS checks than the first raid of the previous expansion did, but that's just how it is.

[HyoMinPark]

Surely you understand though, that a lot of this complaining comes from people who would like to play, say, Red Mage, but do not feel its fair that a Red Mage needs to play to the level of skill of the 90th percentile merely to do the same damage as a 40th percentile, mediocre Black Mage player, all while still being told their class is too easy to deserve being buffed. It would probably be less bad if the first raid of this expansion didn't have harsher DPS checks than the first raid of the previous expansion did, but that's just how it is.

On Eden Prime versus Alte Roite: to be fair, it wouldn't take much to have a harder DPS check than O1S. That fight was laughably easy. It was refreshing to see the first two fights be harder than SB's first two boss fights of any tier, though I think they front-loaded this tier a lot. The third fight especially doesn't feel as hard to me compared to Halicarnassus, Guardian, or Omega (not that Guardian was that hard either... his fight just felt really long to me for some reason).

I do agree with the rest of your post though, about how some jobs at higher percentiles are still barely better than the Top 3 at a far lower percentile.

[Connor]

Starting to get a bit tired of reiterating this tbh but the majority of people complaining about a job aren’t bothered about it being the top DPS . If anything nobody wants to be the top DPS because of the sacrifices to other parts of the job mechanics that would need to be cut to compensate. Only exception is in the case of jobs that are supposed to be at the top in the first place like Black Mage or Samurai (which are working as intended anyway)

People are complaining about Bard getting its support abilities removed (and there’s been more than just Requiem if you look beyond 4.0) because they were kinda the point of the job. Bard could be the bottom of the battle DPS with the worst support effects in the entire game and I’d still play it as much as I did before if it felt like a Bard that was supporting the party with songs in some way. Which is how the job is sold to new players .

I mean, imagine an entirely new player who levels Bard from 1 to 80 in Shadowbringers who doesn’t read the forums. They’d be doing quest after quest about how Bards sing in the heat of battle the help out their comrades, only to get to 80 and realise that’s still not how the job plays.

It’s the exact same with Astrologian, Red Mage and Ninja.

Astrologian is supposed to draw cards to empower party members by using the constellations to guide them. You’d think that would mean different effects depending on the card, but then you play it and it’s all the exact same card with a different background. If you hadn’t played it before 5.0, you’d be forgiven for thinking ‘but where are these constellation effects’ for each card. Nobody is interested in whether Astrologian is a guaranteed raid spot. They’re interested in making it fun again and to make it match what it claims to do

Red Mage, the offensive magic and sword fighting are just as crucial to the job as the healing potential. You’d be forgiven for thinking the job will be moving between Dualcasting and Swordplay to take down enemies whilst using its versatility to adjust as needed for the party. Then you play it, and the damage is underwhelming, the versatility is kind of useless and it’s like being a weaker version of the other two casters with a little bit more mobility. It being bottom of the barrel DPS is besides the point; just because a job has the lowest DPS doesn’t mean it needs to impotent relative to its competitors.

Could do the same for Dancer and Ninja but hopefully the point is clear. Being ‘bottom’ or ‘top’ DPS is besides the point for most people. If anything, I think the vast majority of posters are simply putting forward ideas to get the concept of what they’d like to see put across. Not for a literal port of their suggestions into the game without any care for balancing. And I mean, even if someone does make a ridiculous suggestion like ‘give Bard every support skill it ever had back including Stoneskin and Raise but with the same DPS’, is it really that big a deal? I don’t imagine the developers just sift through threads and go ‘hey this idea is crazy and game-breaking, lets do this!’

I mean, if someone on the forums is making an ‘illegitimate’ complaint (how does one define this exactly?), then I highly doubt the developers are going to take note of it, regardless of how much they (me) cry

Lastly:

Homogenisation is very important balance but that doesn’t mean it has to come at the cost of the things that make the job unique. It’s a topic for a different thread yet I think it’s just as relevant in this context.

Also, how come healers and tanks have to have extremely homogenised playstyles but DPS can never have any overlap in what they offer. Right now all three DPS roles use the same ‘sliding scale’ for balancing the job’s. Selfish DPS with no utility (Samurai / Machinist / Black Mage), middle ground (Dragoon/Bard/Summoner) low DPS with a little bit more utility (Ninja, Dancer, Red Mage). Why can’t Ninja be medium damage with more utility because Dragoon has that spot? Why does Machinist have to have next to no utility because Dancer has that spot? The sliding scale has made job decisions between roles feel a lot more binary. You aren’t playing the job for the job anymore, you’re playing the spot it matches on the sliding DPS scale.

Yes, unique jobs are exceptionally hard to balance. But honestly, I’d rather deal with some balancing issues (which we already have anyway) than have 17 jobs but only technically only three