So after waiting for about 2 weeks to see the consequence of homogenization

[CrimsonGunner]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

Damage output can always be address by SE managing potentiates,CD,costs and worst case remove/add an effect from/to skill.

it isn't apples and oranges cause the feedback's made by those that wanted the job to be similar to another cause of rdps is probably one of the reasons that pushing homogenized on the gameplay of the jobs.

you mention healers and tanks homogenized,one of the reasons i read that causing this situation is because the feedback's were "our x job need to have the same ability as z job for raids" and SE probably interpret that as excuse to homogenized the roles,instead of offering a different and unique solution to a job and give it something that the others don't have to compensate.
it might not be a large contribute for SE decision but it helps to push sad status on the jobs.

i agree that the damage between jobs is wide and must be address to reduce that gap but just cause they have lower pdmg doesn't mean you cant clear a raid with them or they should be banned from parties cause they are at the bottom right now.

what makes a job fun is its unique play-style and kit,just cause it doesn't offer a utility as another job with the same role doesn't mean it must have their utility.
i agree, balance is a huge mess right now that must be address because its causes certain jobs getting rejected from parties.
it only fuels more of feedback's of "why aren't our job same as that one" or "give us same skill as that" which in truth i believe most of the people say that only cause they want to do raids with the job they love and not getting banned from party just because the jobs they play.

[Tenryou]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

If you want to talk about homogenization on DPS role, you should go see the tank and healer roles. Tanks got same 123 combo and same mitigation kits via role skills. Healers got 1 dps spell and 1 dot to play with.

On DPS roles, each job at least retains their unique core gameplay to differentiate with each other. While some are pure dps and some are hybrid support, the current damage output gap between jobs are in a total mess.

I don't care if BLM, MNK, and DRG are top in damage department. The problem is the damage gap between the three and the rest is so large to the point it makes no sense.

To help visualize the gap for example:

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest
(rough sketch, but you should get the idea.)

Every ranking system is bound to have few at the lower part of the list, but being lower doesn't need to mean being shitty. Who says the rest jobs are fine is delusional.

Caster rank for example:

BLM >>>>> SMN >>> RDM

You see the problem? Not only RDM is the last, it is currently getting rejected by majority. The gap between BLM and SMN is still too large.

Then there is the imbalance among job's personal dps and utility. DRG/MNK all have party buffs to bring and yet they both do higher damage than SAM who has zero party utility. NIN on the other hand have utility via trick attack, but is in the worst situation due to having low personal dps with a utility that could not make up for it.

Though not as bad, DNC is in the same situation:

BRD > MCH >>>>>> DNC

DNC's single and party buffs could not make up for the low personal dps it brings, thus gets rejected. MCH, being the pure dps of physical range jobs, should be dealing better damage, yet BRD seems to be better and have battle voice.

Some jobs, whose strength lies in the utility they bring to the party, are getting rejected because their personal damage is too low to compete with those who are at the top.

The current balance is a huge mess. Probably the worst I've seen.

I like this post but i kind of wanna joke about this line

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A SUPPORT?THOSETHINGSAREDEADBIGDPSMETAONLY>>>>>>>>>>>ninja


Real talk tho i think you did a good job summing it up visually. I'm fine with no utility classes have a Slightly higher dps than a synergy dps class. However i think SE believes monk and dragoon are selfish dps still and dnc rdm and nin do so much for the party it's game breaking.
I can't understand what happened at all this patch

[OmegaStrongtan]

I like this post but i kind of wanna joke about this line

Highest dps > 2nd highest dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A SUPPORT?THOSETHINGSAREDEADBIGDPSMETAONLY>>>>>>>>>>>ninja

kek. as a DNC main I can say "At least I am not Ninja"

[MaelleRiou]

What got homogenized was gameplay. It has nothing to do with damage output. Please don't put oranges and apples all together.

But bard gameplay barely changed at all. A 2% crit bonus that just happens from doing your rotation being removed doesn't change gameplay. Bards still play the same songs during their rotation, all that's gone is a passive buff to others they applied.

[Kabooa]

But bard gameplay barely changed at all. A 2% crit bonus that just happens from doing your rotation being removed doesn't change gameplay. Bards still play the same songs during their rotation, all that's gone is a passive buff to others they applied.

And Foe Req. That thing you push at the start and then every time Refresh is up.

Gaemplay

[Miziliti]

And Foe Req. That thing you push at the start and then every time Refresh is up.

Gaemplay

But bard gameplay barely changed at all. A 2% crit bonus that just happens from doing your rotation being removed doesn't change gameplay. Bards still play the same songs during their rotation, all that's gone is a passive buff to others they applied.

Oh yea BRD didn't get effected much by homogenization like I said that DPS roles received least damages by homogenization.

Thanks for telling the world BRD is boring. I guess.

[Vulcann]

the problem is this game is going the WoW route where everything is raid or die and so of course classes are going to homogenized ... because you have to for raid content. everything needs to be optimal or else it is thrown to the wayside.

what this game needs is more interesting ways to progress your characters besides JUST raiding. i think building on the Trust system could really open up the game if the community would allow it (which i doubt from the attitudes i have seen already)

[Connor]

Starting to get a bit tired of reiterating this tbh but the majority of people complaining about a job aren’t bothered about it being the top DPS . If anything nobody wants to be the top DPS because of the sacrifices to other parts of the job mechanics that would need to be cut to compensate. Only exception is in the case of jobs that are supposed to be at the top in the first place like Black Mage or Samurai (which are working as intended anyway)

People are complaining about Bard getting its support abilities removed (and there’s been more than just Requiem if you look beyond 4.0) because they were kinda the point of the job. Bard could be the bottom of the battle DPS with the worst support effects in the entire game and I’d still play it as much as I did before if it felt like a Bard that was supporting the party with songs in some way. Which is how the job is sold to new players .

I mean, imagine an entirely new player who levels Bard from 1 to 80 in Shadowbringers who doesn’t read the forums. They’d be doing quest after quest about how Bards sing in the heat of battle the help out their comrades, only to get to 80 and realise that’s still not how the job plays.

It’s the exact same with Astrologian, Red Mage and Ninja.

Astrologian is supposed to draw cards to empower party members by using the constellations to guide them. You’d think that would mean different effects depending on the card, but then you play it and it’s all the exact same card with a different background. If you hadn’t played it before 5.0, you’d be forgiven for thinking ‘but where are these constellation effects’ for each card. Nobody is interested in whether Astrologian is a guaranteed raid spot. They’re interested in making it fun again and to make it match what it claims to do

Red Mage, the offensive magic and sword fighting are just as crucial to the job as the healing potential. You’d be forgiven for thinking the job will be moving between Dualcasting and Swordplay to take down enemies whilst using its versatility to adjust as needed for the party. Then you play it, and the damage is underwhelming, the versatility is kind of useless and it’s like being a weaker version of the other two casters with a little bit more mobility. It being bottom of the barrel DPS is besides the point; just because a job has the lowest DPS doesn’t mean it needs to impotent relative to its competitors.

Could do the same for Dancer and Ninja but hopefully the point is clear. Being ‘bottom’ or ‘top’ DPS is besides the point for most people. If anything, I think the vast majority of posters are simply putting forward ideas to get the concept of what they’d like to see put across. Not for a literal port of their suggestions into the game without any care for balancing. And I mean, even if someone does make a ridiculous suggestion like ‘give Bard every support skill it ever had back including Stoneskin and Raise but with the same DPS’, is it really that big a deal? I don’t imagine the developers just sift through threads and go ‘hey this idea is crazy and game-breaking, lets do this!’

I mean, if someone on the forums is making an ‘illegitimate’ complaint (how does one define this exactly?), then I highly doubt the developers are going to take note of it, regardless of how much they (me) cry

Lastly:

Homogenisation is very important balance but that doesn’t mean it has to come at the cost of the things that make the job unique. It’s a topic for a different thread yet I think it’s just as relevant in this context.

Also, how come healers and tanks have to have extremely homogenised playstyles but DPS can never have any overlap in what they offer. Right now all three DPS roles use the same ‘sliding scale’ for balancing the job’s. Selfish DPS with no utility (Samurai / Machinist / Black Mage), middle ground (Dragoon/Bard/Summoner) low DPS with a little bit more utility (Ninja, Dancer, Red Mage). Why can’t Ninja be medium damage with more utility because Dragoon has that spot? Why does Machinist have to have next to no utility because Dancer has that spot? The sliding scale has made job decisions between roles feel a lot more binary. You aren’t playing the job for the job anymore, you’re playing the spot it matches on the sliding DPS scale.

Yes, unique jobs are exceptionally hard to balance. But honestly, I’d rather deal with some balancing issues (which we already have anyway) than have 17 jobs but only technically only three

[kajv95]

Chiming in on the BRD conversation, there were some pretty important changes made to BRD that overall changed a lot of the more interesting aspects of BRD. Potency values, removal of crit reliance, straight shot and empyreal arrow changes all make BRD have a much lower skill ceiling than it used to. Yes, on face value it doesn't look like much was changed, yes the things you noted were some of the duller aspects of the job. But it's not the only thing that was changed, and any self-respecting SB BRD main can tell you that. If you don't understand what was changed overall, please don't make comments about how simple a job is. That'd be like me saying Summoner is better/worse for its changes. I don't play Summoner, so I can literally only comment on what they bring to a party and what their overall DPS is like.

[CrashofZenki]

BUT! Since people is crying that oh no.. NIN will be permanent if that happens, or oh no if NIN gets a chance at beating BLM even if its a 00000000.1% Chance in a perfect run with perfect team mates.. Nah.. TA is too valuable.

But if you actually do some digging you will see that TA was never OP at all. NIN rDPS would in 99.9% of the time never beat the highest DPS class in the past. Its the IDEA that people get when seeing one group do well that that spesific job is a must have, even when it was not. Some comps obviously was easier to clear with, but that was more in terms with lack of synergy in group, and personal skill difference in the players.

But since TA always got broight up when we cried out for balance between the DPS classes it was always shut down. And that is the REAL reason some Ninja mains have come to the point where we dont want TA if it means we have to be nerfed so hard that our efforts, our time, and our passion of the class fades away because of one simple utility.

Oh and lets not forget we lost all the other utilities, we have ONE. MNK has TWO and is now the highest in most cases... Is that fair?

I dont think people are asking for utility classes, or.. NIN or what ever to be OP.. we want BALANCE.

And if the only way to get balance is to make every class have utility, or not have utility... Then if thats what it takes then bring it! Because this is killing the enjoyment of the game.