Balance, Homogenisation and Encounter Design: The Problem.

[Melichoir]

The issue with homogenization and balance is that homogenization is how theyre achieving balance.

What I mean is that the argument for balance ends up being "Well, they should all function the same," which is wrong. In reality, all classes should help meet the 'end goal' in equal parts but how they get there should differ. So how this is handled is whether you play monk or drg, you pull the same dps give or take a 100 when you are min/maxed. Beyond that, they should be free to bring anything or perform in any fashion.

Thats simple on paper, of course, but not in practice. A Good example of this is the tanks. They got homogenized in such a fashion where its essentially all the same primary CDs, basic damage and resource management, and a spam phase. BloodSpiller = Fell Cleave = Holy Spirit. GNB breaks the mold I believe by having a bit more complexity (which might be why its more popular. It feels like its own thing.) The issue is that the Devs took DRK which was a bit more unique (but thats not necessarily for the better mind you) and pretty much gave them an oGCD to spam when you were over flowing on mana and something akin to IR. PLD has a similar thing where you switch to a spammo phase of HL. This did end up making them all more balanced damage wise, but they lost their unique nature. This was the wrong way to balance.

Instead, they shouldve reworked the classes so they have unique skill identities. They end up having the same dps output overall (which is a matter of tweaking numbers) and same overall survivability, but different aspects of how thats achieved. Paladin shouldnt have Holy Spirit. It should have more robust shield skills instead. Its a huge missed opportunity there. Warrior should be the brawliest of tanks. A "Hulk Smash" tank, where they dont spam FC 5 times, but instead build up to do massively devastating hits compared to the others. Perhaps itll function like a chain attack they have to pull off for a mighty finisher and theyll have a slower AA speed as an offset. DRK should be pushing the Magic angle a lot harder, possibly reworking skills like LD to make it a specialty invuln that does damage. I.E: When you pop LD, you become invuln for 10 seconds and cant drop below 1 HP, and the damage you take gets converted into a huge attack when LD finishes that scales. So using LD when you only lost 10% or even 50% Hp wouldnt do a whole lot. Its when youve been hit for fatal damage that it does a heavy hit. That or if you get put down to 1 hp, you get a massive ASPD or damage buff for 10 seconds. Etc. Having ranged magic strikes, or a more robust version of Esteem that can act like a commanded pet to a limited extent (Like send it to attack or tank other mobs itself)

Balance at the end of the day should only matter in the numbers aspect, but the classes themselves need to be set apart that there is a core mechanic that makes them 100% unique. The caveat to this approach, however, is youll likely see less classes over time. If your DRK is gonna be your magic tank, then that kind of eats up that roll. Having another one becomes redundant and ends up eating into the others core identity. This also means a lot of time spent by the devs doing these reworks. I am under the impression that due to the scope of ShB as a project, that balance and reworkings were not a main feature. As a point, DRK feels uninspired. Lastly, it also means that some classes will be harder to play. This should be ok as long as its not so ridiculously more difficult to be functional compared to other classes.

[linay]

…

Instead, they shouldve reworked the classes so they have unique skill identities. They end up having the same dps output overall (which is a matter of tweaking numbers) and same overall survivability, but different aspects of how thats achieved.

...

Lastly, it also means that some classes will be harder to play. This should be ok as long as its not so ridiculously more difficult to be functional compared to other classes.

I think that would be the potential issue. If a more complex job outputs the same DPS as a simpler job (and this might be subjective as different people work differently and may find different things to be complex, though some things can be universal as well), either people would see no point in taking the more complex job as it would mean higher chance of failure with no extra benefit or it would feel unrewarding to play unless the player is looking for that exact complexity in gameplay.

[Hatstand]

I think that would be the potential issue. If a more complex job outputs the same DPS as a simpler job (and this might be subjective as different people work differently and may find different things to be complex, though some things can be universal as well), either people would see no point in taking the more complex job as it would mean higher chance of failure with no extra benefit or it would feel unrewarding to play unless the player is looking for that exact complexity in gameplay.

Higher potential damage could work so long as there is significant difficulty and penalty for failure. We can already see that happening with BLM. They have huge damage potential, but bad positioning/messing up their rotation/etc can cost them severely. Sure, the top parsers who can attract the best players would probably stick to the high risk high reward jobs, but for your average run a, say, RDM who can reliably bring x damage would be as desirable as a BLM who could bring y>x damage if played perfectly, or z<x damage if they stuff up, but will probably on average bring x damage. It’d be harder to balance, but I think it’d be worth it.

[Melichoir]

I think that would be the potential issue. If a more complex job outputs the same DPS as a simpler job (and this might be subjective as different people work differently and may find different things to be complex, though some things can be universal as well), either people would see no point in taking the more complex job as it would mean higher chance of failure with no extra benefit or it would feel unrewarding to play unless the player is looking for that exact complexity in gameplay.

This is partly true from an "On Paper" point of view. Why take a 'riskier' job that requires a higher skill floor to play when you can face roll it all the same with an easier job. But it doesnt take into account how players can be. Sometimes players will play the harder class because of aesthetics or because its funner. You might be able to offset it by rewarding a little higher dps overall to the more difficult classes. Not that it should be so substantial that its a must take, but that if you have someoen who can play it that well, that you get the benefit of a bit more dps for your raid. Maybe that job can have a utility that boosts everyone's dps overall by doing it right. It's all a matter of figuring out a way and then balancing it accordingly. It should be fine to have some classes easier to play and some be harder to play. Minor differences in out put with some relationship to input will make things alright.

It is not always good for classes to be the same difficulty cause that tends to lean more towards having a simpler lower skill floor and easier play style than complexity. And if its to simplistic, it can get boring fairly quick as people reach the skill ceiling with little effort.

[RoyalBeef]

the problem is this game is going the WoW route, where as its "raid or die" so of course there is going to be homogenization, because everything needs to be "optimized" for the hardest raids. the best thing for this game would be to give us more options on character advancement.

The problem is there is not really "the hardest raids" and "other raids"...there's just "raids."

Progression in this game looks like this:

Cakewalk everything before Savage <--- brickwall ---> Savage

There is no fun but challenging content for non min-maxers. Well, Farm Ex mounts...yay

If there was enough content in different tiers that's worthwhile, no one would care if the top 1% were min maxing and creating metas. But now it's either "play class X or there is no more content for you bc you wont find a party for it" so of course people become frustrated.