Balance, Homogenisation and Encounter Design: The Problem.

[Ladon]

Surely they can have homogenised gameplay whilst still having unique things for each job though? There’s already good examples of jobs that have a lot of homogenised elements but whose unique traits are just as satisfying (putting aside any balancing issues for now. Dancer has all the standard trimmings of the ranged DPS role but still feels fun to play as a job and not just as a role because of the unique elements it has (like Steps / Improvisation / Curing Waltz).

Surely they can homogenise gameplay without it coming at the cost of job uniqueness. I mean, there’s more than enough room for them to have both the ‘standard role’ kit and stuff that differentiates the job from others in terms of the number of abilities we have now. I feel like they should try to find some kind of happy medium between the two at the very least

You’re right that stuff loose class compositions can’t work in FFXIV because of the party design. But at the same time, even if every party is limited to the 2 melee 1 ranged 1 caster paradigm (if that’s what it even is), I feel like they can still make jobs feel different from each other within that restricted paradigm

I’m not sure I am seeing the level of homogenization you are describing. Yes tank defense is very homogenized now for basically the reason I described, all tanks have to be able to tank with the same effectiveness. There are basically two types of tanking: mitigation and avoidance and everyone should be well aware you can’t balance the two...so every tank in this game is a mitigation tank with the same tools. But offensively the four tanks are very different in mechanics.

Let’s look at the other jobs: RDM, SMN and BLM all play very different. Same with MNK, NIN, DRG and SAM. DNC, BRD, MCH? Yup all unique play styles.

What about healers? Well just like with tanks, healer offense has been mostly homogenized. This is likely so they can make the healing style unique but effective for each job without having to factor how healing downtime is spent for each healer.

Now if you are thinking about them introducing stuff like reverse damage shield healers, or pure buffer or pure debuffer jobs than it can never happen with the 8 person compositions because it’s impossible to also design encounters that account for those types of jobs being or not being present without the diminishing impact 40-50 player compositions offers.

[Hatstand]

I’m not sure I am seeing the level of homogenization you are describing. Yes tank defense is very homogenized now for basically the reason I described, all tanks have to be able to tank with the same effectiveness. There are basically two types of tanking: mitigation and avoidance and everyone should be well aware you can’t balance the two...so every tank in this game is a mitigation tank with the same tools. But offensively the four tanks are very different in mechanics.

Let’s look at the other jobs: RDM, SMN and BLM all play very different. Same with MNK, NIN, DRG and SAM. DNC, BRD, MCH? Yup all unique play styles.

What about healers? Well just like with tanks, healer offense has been mostly homogenized. This is likely so they can make the healing style unique but effective for each job without having to factor how healing downtime is spent for each healer.

Now if you are thinking about them introducing stuff like reverse damage shield healers, or pure buffer or pure debuffer jobs than it can never happen with the 8 person compositions because it’s impossible to also design encounters that account for those types of jobs being or not being present without the diminishing impact 40-50 player compositions offers.

Why should tank defence get homogenised, and healer offence? If tanks’ defense is homogenised because defence is their main job and they all need the same tools to get it done, isn’t that also an argument for homogenising healer defensive kits? If healers’ offence is homogenised because healing is the main part of their job and that’s where the complexity should be, isn’t that also an argument for homogenising tank damage?

Healers show that you can have (fairly) distinct offensive options while still being (fairly) balanced, and tanks do the same for offence. Both classes should benefit from both.

And I can’t comment too much on the tank stuff, since I’ve only been tanking for a few weeks, but I’ve healed for years and I can say that what you have as an offensive kit doesn’t affect how much time you spend doing downtime stuff (and therefore how your healing kit needs to be balanced). Encounter design and healing kit affects it. Ergo, that doesn’t fly as a reason for homogenising healer offensive kits.

[Dzian]

I’m not sure I am seeing the level of homogenization you are describing. Yes tank defense is very homogenized now for basically the reason I described, all tanks have to be able to tank with the same effectiveness. There are basically two types of tanking: mitigation and avoidance and everyone should be well aware you can’t balance the two...so every tank in this game is a mitigation tank with the same tools. But offensively the four tanks are very different in mechanics.

This isn't necessarily the case you can have tanks with different levels of effectiveness without any real issue at all if the content isn't biased.

a poster said earlier for example that PLD was a very effective physical damage tank but a not very effective magical tank. then you hard DRK that was a very effective magic tank but not very effective physical tank. and warrior as a kinf of middle of the road.
having jobs with different strengths and weaknesses and varying levels of effectiveness is a good thing.

The problem tanks faced with this however was that the devs went and made entire raid teirs magic damage heavy and thus paladin was undesirable because it was totally unaffective at magic damage...

if the damage in alexander was better balanced between magic and physical then the varying levels of effectiveness between tanks would not have been an issue because while paladins may have taken a beating from magic attacks they would have shrugged off the physical and thus balanced themselves out..