Balance, Homogenisation and Encounter Design: The Problem.

[Stanelis]

Maybe you are right. To me, it seemed the right time for this debate because in three days the MMO which arguably is the most popular of all time will relaunch its 1.12 version, a project run by a company that recently went full "shareholders revenue". An hypothetical success of the product could completely redesign the balances of the MMO market and influence future design choices.

If vanilla wow is sucessful in the long run maybe some developper will look back at things and notice how the genre got trapped in the evolutionary dead end it is currently in, and then start to develop something new with the same principles. But don't expect this to happen before a few years.

[DPZ2]

If vanilla wow is sucessful in the long run maybe some developper will look back at things and notice how the genre got trapped in the evolutionary dead end it is currently in, and then start to develop something new with the same principles. But don't expect this to happen before a few years.

RIP Wildstar.

[Stanelis]

RIP Wildstar.

Wildstar was marketed as something oldschool but it was actually designed along the same principles as modern MMOs. And I cleared the raids on this mmo back in the day.

[SturmChurro]

If vanilla wow is sucessful in the long run maybe some developper will look back at things and notice how the genre got trapped in the evolutionary dead end it is currently in, and then start to develop something new with the same principles. But don't expect this to happen before a few years.

I'm not seeing it, classic WoW certainly has boosted WoW's subscribers a significant amount, but classic I think is a big gimmick. It will probably keep a fair few dedicated players, there is definitly a demand with so many people playing on those private servers, but I think the mass audience will fade fairly quickly. I'd say within a few weeks to a couple months at most. Even with the patches to come.

Personally I hate sandbox MMO's and prefer themepark mmorpgs. I prefer a game that has more structure and a set path, rather than "make your own fun". They need to find a perfect balance between class identity;unique play, and the true "balance" they are going for. While we will never get truly what you want in this game. It would require a complete overhaul of everything, and probably the introduction of support classes. I however do think they could probably do more with their encounter designs within the bounds they have chosen. Personally, I think the dungeon design is fine, however I think they should also add more varied content, or rather, more content in general. The structure is too simple, and more would be better. As it is, it's throwaway dungeon, trial, extreme, savage.

Making the classes more homogenized is a side-effect of them simply trying to lessen their workload, in my opinion.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Personally, I think the dungeon design is fine, however I think they should also add more varied content, or rather, more content in general. The structure is too simple, and more would be better. As it is, it's throwaway dungeon, trial, extreme, savage.

You left out Alliance Raid. They have also added 2 more reoccurring content types Deep Dungeons (PotD and HoH) and Exploration Zones (Diadem and Eureka). Part of the problem with 5.0 is that it really needed to include either a deep dungeon or lvl 80 exploration zone between 5.0 and 5.05.

Making the classes more homogenized is a side-effect of them simply trying to lessen their workload, in my opinion.

More them trying to limit outside design cases based on job differences. I can thing of several cases where problems occurred due to different jobs in the same role not having the same capabilities.

[Shurrikhan]

Truth be told the DpS focus of this game is more the result of all high end fights having tight hard enrage timers. Its hard to not be dps focused when completion of a fight is more determined by doing X amount of damage before X minutes are up than being able to repeatably do mechanics.

They're not that tight, though. They still allow for failure far more than the only other real alternative -- one-shot or crippling mechanics and limited rezzes. The dps checks could more aptly be called "effective average quality of mechanics management" checks.

They're not "dps focused" so much as having so few ways by which anything but healer shields and raid mitigation/absorption CDs can actually do anything to improve your chances of reaching the end of the fight except by... dpsing.

Making the classes more homogenized is a side-effect of them simply trying to lessen their workload, in my opinion.

Tfw that exact excuse, with the alleged trade of better balancing and more engaging fights, has been used in multiple MMOs I've played, only to then create worse balance and fights which the community generally rated lower than those made before the streamlining occurred...

[Ultimatecalibur]

They're not that tight, though. They still allow for failure far more than the only other real alternative -- one-shot or crippling mechanics and limited rezzes. The dps checks could more aptly be called "effective average quality of mechanics management" checks.

They're not "dps focused" so much as having so few ways by which anything but healer shields and raid mitigation/absorption CDs can actually do anything to improve your chances of reaching the end of the fight except by... dpsing.

Comparable to other possibilities they are tight. Titania EX is on an 11 minute hard timer. E1S is on a 10 min hard timer that shortens with every death. Also I've seen plenty of wipes over the past 5 and 1/2 years in EX and Savage fights where the group could do the mechanics perfectly but they just didn't have the dps to kill the boss, it is far to easy to hit enrage and often a fight will only go throw 2 final phase rotations before enrage happens. There is little benefit to greater tank survivability and healer longevity.

Getting to an enrage should be a test of tank and healer capabilities to survive and heal while killing the boss before then should be a test of the dps' output. Right now it is not hard to get to a fight's enrage once the dance is learned.

[Shurrikhan]

Getting to an enrage should be a test of tank and healer capabilities to survive and heal while killing the boss before then should be a test of the dps' output.

Isn't that exactly what we have now? Or do you want back the 5-tanks 3-healers Extreme Primal prog meta we had when dps checks lightened?

[Acidblood]

Isn't that exactly what we have now? Or do you want back the 5-tanks 3-healers Extreme Primal prog meta we had when dps checks lightened?

DPS can still be important without hard enrages; and you can still have hard enrages, just set them at 15 minutes instead of 10 (assuming the fight is balanced around 10 minutes).

To do this though you need Healers to have finite MP, and have enough unavoidable outgoing damage from the boss that Healers will go OOM within 10 minutes... unless of course you use mitigation, and party MP regen abilities, and do mechanics well (death is a huge waste of MP), and debuff the boss, and kill the adds quickly, and etc.

This creates a much more even and natural balance between DPS and Survivability; i.e. if all you focus on is DPS then you had better do it damn well because you aren’t going survive for very long. If, however you focus on efficient survivability (and do it well) then DPS isn't so much of an issue because you can still beat the fight even if it takes you 14 minutes.

Note 1: This would probably require some adjustments to current Tank DPS (Healers should be too busy healing to do much), with Tanks having a greater focus on mitigation.

Note 2: This would require a redesign of Healers (which is probably needed anyway) as current Healer design is too focused on burst healing. Heals would need to be (generally) less powerful but more efficient, including via interactions (e.g. Medica II HoT increases Medica heals by 10%).

Note 3: Set DPS checks are still fine in small doses, so you could still build them in to prevent full Tank / Healer parties, just don’t make the entire fight a hard DPS check.

Note 4: Soft enrages could also be used, and start around the 10 minute mark, with each ‘rotation’ getting harder and harder to survive; this would create a ‘standard’ finishing point that you would want to aim for while still allowing variance in party composition and approach.


... Either that of SE needs to fully embrace the DPS nature of its designs and give Healers a decent damage / support kit.

[Shurrikhan]

DPS can still be important without hard enrages; and you can still have hard enrages, just set them at 15 minutes instead of 10 (assuming the fight is balanced around 10 minutes).

To do this though you need Healers to have finite MP, and have enough unavoidable outgoing damage from the boss that Healers will go OOM within 10 minutes... unless of course you use mitigation, and party MP regen abilities, and do mechanics well (death is a huge waste of MP), and debuff the boss, and kill the adds quickly, and etc.

This creates a much more even and natural balance between DPS and Survivability; i.e. if all you focus on is DPS then you had better do it damn well because you aren’t going survive for very long.

No, it doesn't. It would make no difference except that the dps check would now arrive anywhere between some 7 and 10 minutes based on how sparingly your healers used MP. Healers afking between damage intake would be not only viable but often required. (And I've no idea what to say to you if you could possibly think that a system which requires you to spend significant time doing nothing or almost only ever using the most modest and MP-efficient mini-heals is somehow a good thing.)

You'll have moved the enrage, in all likelihood, earlier, while demanding less activity or clarity of purpose from players. "Should I sacrifice uptime to further reduce damage taken from these flare mechanics?" "Well, how good are your healers and tanks, and did you forget to bring PLD-DRK and WHM-WHM to extend healer MP for as long as possible?" "I, uh, don't know, and we have AST-SCH." "Well, I guess enrage will be around 8 minutes if they're good?"