What could DRK have learned from FFXI?

[kazzel120]

Heavy armour does not make a job a tank. DRKs throughout the series wore heavy armour to compensate for the fact they were consuming their own hp to deal more damage. There was nothing tanky about them. Sure they could tank by giving up their identity as a DRK (e.g. NOT consuming their own hp), but at that point you might as well be using a knight/paladin (something even Cecil realised).

4 main title games have had Dark Knights only 2 of those said Dark Knights sacrificed hp to do damage. Xi's with soul eater and Dark Knight Cecil thats it period and guess what Darkness Cecils one skill that they removed for the American release was so weak it wasn't even worth using.

And outside 2 to 3 total fights in the ds remake you used it only once per those fights thats it.

But boy darknight had "always used hp to deal damage" no it hasn't lol.

[Reynhart]

Darkness Cecils one skill that they removed for the American release was so weak it wasn't even worth using.

Wow, that's heavy misinformation there. Darkness was a very useful skill...for AoE purpose. And the reason why it was removed was not because it was weak, but because they thought western people wouldn't be able to grasp the strategic use of character skills. Love the irony.

And outside 2 to 3 total fights in the ds remake you used it only once per those fights thats it.

You mean in the game where it's a toggle ? Sure you use it once per fight.

And for the record, in FF III, it's not a Dark Knight as in 暗黒騎士 but a Mystic Knight まけんし. It was only translated as Dark Knight in the DS remake...where it gained Souleater.

But boy darknight had "always used hp to deal damage" no it hasn't lol.

Yes, it has. XIV is the only exception in the main series. And how convenient to push aside every other Dark Knight incarnation in FF spinoff and affiliated games, where they do sacrifice HP everytime it's a job you can use.

Dark Knight attacks are fuelled by MP as a representation of their life-force instead of HP.

Which is a very bland representation because all casters are already "fuelled" by MP. At best, give DRK another ressource where using it all would be bad, not related to your HP...which, strangely enough, was close to how Darkside worked in HW.

[TouchandFeel]

And for the record, in FF III, it's not a Dark Knight as in 暗黒騎士 but a Mystic Knight まけんし. It was only translated as Dark Knight in the DS remake...where it gained Souleater.

まけんし (ph. Ma-ken-shi) does not translate to "Mystic Knight".

Kenshi is literally swordsman/fencer and Ma is a descriptor that basically means "supernatural with a dark, ominous or scary connotation" or can at times mean conceptually "cursed" or "demonic (in a more Japanese sense)". It's something that is hard to describe or perfectly translate into English. So saying that it was "Dark Swordsman", "Dark Fencer" or something along those lines is not far off and closer conceptually than "Mystic Knight", where "Dark" is more the conceptual idea, like in dark forces or dark magic, as opposed to the literal like darkness in a dark room.
Also just a note, the kanji version of the name is used/referenced here and there for Makenshi as well (魔 剣士) and not just the Romaji (まけんし).

In regard to the job translated to Mystic Knight that came later, 魔法剣士 (ph. Ma-hou-ken-shi), that translation is much more fitting.
Mahou translates to magic, but specifically the Western idea of magic like wizards and the like. So Mahoukenshi means Magic Swordsman, Mystic Swordsman, Magic Fencer, etc. and Mystic Knight is not far off.

The later more literal name given for Dark Knight is exactly that, literal. 暗黒騎士 (ph. An-ko-ku-ki-shi), with ankoku translating to literal darkness, as in the lack or absence of light, and kishi meaning basically "knight", 騎 - this kanji (ki) refers to equestrian/having to do with riding a horse and 士 (shi) refers to a person of skill, expertise or of standing just like in kenshi (剣士) <-- see the character at the end there. So basically a person skilled in riding a horse which conceptually means basically a cavalry person which means a knight.

In essence the later name used for Dark Knight was an evolution of the name used in the Famicom version of FF3, taking the idea of a Dark Swordsman and going super literal to fit the narrative of FF4 where Cecil is literally a knight in the service of the kingdom of Baron.
So Makenshi (魔 剣士) is the precursor to Ankokukishi (暗黒騎士) and the foundational concept is the same.

I hope that from now on the "Makenshi means Mystic Knight"/"It was called Mystic Knight in FF3" thing is appropriately binned and I never have to go over this explanation again.

P.S. And before anybody brings it up, although the kanji for ma (魔) appears in mahou (魔法), the darker connotations of ma do not carry over to mahou as mahou is very specific in being the Japanese idea of "Western magic" which doesn't have any good/bad/dark/light connotations inherent to it.

[Ultimatecalibur]

P.S. And before anybody brings it up, although the kanji for ma (魔) appears in mahou (魔法), the darker connotations of ma do not carry over to mahou as mahou is very specific in being the Japanese idea of "Western magic" which doesn't have any good/bad/dark/light connotations inherent to it.

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

[TouchandFeel]

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

Not exactly because the kanji and their individual meanings don't really translate perfectly over in the case of certain words like mahou (魔法) because it is intended to specifically express a Western idea of something. So two kanji were chosen that sort of convey the idea and were put together, supernatural+law/structure of (more contextually structure of in this case) and figured that was close to the idea of Western magic with its spells and whatnot. There really isn't more depth or intricacy to it than that. Mahou is just simply the idea of Western magic that they fit kanji to in order to create a word to use for it. This process isn't uncommon in Japanese when integrating foreign ideas or concepts into the language.

Also, hou (法) doesn't really carry the same positive connotations as the Western ideas of law, order, etc. It just is, neither positive or negative, in the sense that "the order of things" can be both good and bad depending on context and association.

[Reynhart]

Also just a note, the kanji version of the name is used/referenced here and there for Makenshi as well (魔 剣士) and not just the Romaji (まけんし).

That's the exact same 魔 that you found in 魔道士 which is the word used for Black Mage, White Mage, etc...In the context of Final Fantasy III, there is no sign of any "scary" connotation, especially if you consider that the "Magic Knight" used White Magic back then.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

Mahou (魔法) and madou (魔道) are basically the same word within the context of usage in Japanese, meaning magic in a Western sense, you just rarely if ever see madou (魔道) used by itself and you rarely if ever see mahoushi (魔法士) used for mage/magician/wizard and instead see madoushi (魔道士). It's just an example of the common quirk in Japanese where two or more words mean exactly the same thing even though they have different parts, and kanji, making them up and each is used instead of the others depending on context or situation.

So no, that fact that ma (魔) is in madoushi (魔道士) has as much connotative weight as it appearing in mahou (魔法), which is virtually none for the exact same reason of it expressing a very specific concept of the Western idea of magic.

If one wants to argue that the Makenshi (魔剣士) of FF3 should not be included in an argument of "what were Dark Knight classic abilities" because it was a proto-Dark Knight and therefore the truly formative elements hadn't been established yet, that is fine.
But, if we are talking about the Japanese names, the words that are used for them , the context within the kanji and how that then relates to the words/names and how best to try to capture that in an English translation, I stand by what I have said.

Also, the last time this exact topic came up I decided to sanity-check myself and ran it by an immediate family member that is a native Japanese speaker with multiple degrees in language and literature, years of working as a professional English/Japanese translator and having taught Japanese at a college level. They basically told me what I have said here in regards to the meaning of the words and how the context of the kanji does and doesn't carry over to the words in regards to the whole ma (魔) in makenshi ((魔 剣士) and mahou (魔法) topic. I think I'll take their word on it.

[Reynhart]

Mahou (魔法) and madou (魔道) are basically the same word within the context of usage in Japanese meaning magic in a Western sense

You know where 魔法 is used ? In 魔法剣士 .

[Auron_Wolf]

I love how this thread has pass from “I want this version of this class I like, to fit in this game” to “for me this a tank” then get a FFIV discussion in the middle, and then jump to kanji translation xD.

@TouchandFeel: I have a friend living in japan, working as a teacher of Spanish, and I remember having quite long conversations when I send him material for translation, to see how to fit for their lessons jeje, you really have a love for language or a lot of patient for this type of themes.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

I completely agree with you in this point, and that’s why I think to say “this class is defined by this set of parameters” is attached to each one personal gaming experience.

As a side note I don’t think we see any changes with the battle system in any class, than go more far than this dull thing we have now, since as far I have read and seen, the dev team found their “ideal formula” in this expansion .