What could DRK have learned from FFXI?

[Shurrikhan]

What? Cecil was a tank aka front line in heavy armor and the only one until he became a Paladin so yes darknight in IV was a tank.

But as a Dark Knight, Cecil was squishier than even a Dragoon, and no less squishy than a Monk?

[Lyth]

If you're making a claim based off of HP scaling, then you should also make a claim based off dps scaling. If Cecil as a Dark Knight is definitively a "dps", then he should be doing more damage as a Dark Knight than he is as a Paladin. That clearly isn't the case. He has less stats across the board. The reason why his stat scaling is weaker as a Dark Knight is because you're expected to climb Mount Ordeals at the level 15-20 range as a Dark Knight and come down as a level 1 Paladin. You can think of Paladin as being his "job upgrade", similar to the Fighter -> Knight transition in FFI. So I don't think that argument really holds up.

[Reynhart]

The reason why his stat scaling is weaker as a Dark Knight is because you're expected to climb Mount Ordeals at the level 15-20 range as a Dark Knight and come down as a level 1 Paladin.

The issue is that DRK Cecil is not tankier that other frontliners you have in those level range, whereas PLD Cecil, outside of using the overpowered Ragnarok, clearly do less DPS than other frontliners at endgame.

[Xenosan]

FFIV and Cecil have been retconned so much over the decades is it even wise to look at that as a source of truth?

In the original game as I recall it felt like Cecil went from a 'corrupt' or 'imperfect' knight to simply a knight.

The DRK to PLD dichotomy came later once Square had the FF franchise tropes and style more solidified.

But maybe I'm not remembering correctly

[LichKaiser]

This is FF14 not FF11. Game is different, HOW you play is different, itemization is different, gamplay is different. Compare 2 class (dark knight) from 2 different games just coz they have the same name is the most stupid idea ever saw, pls stop this threads.
Im loosing brain cells reading.

PS. take "ispiration from" is not "must make it the same" or "similar". Dark Knight is a class way older of FF11 and it worked as both tank and dps, BUT in a JRPG contest. THIS is is a MMO, need to specialize in 1 way, you cant do both. SE choose the tank since the HEAVY armor theme suit more into tank into FF14 structure (dont say Dragoon can use heavy armor, coz his own "iconic" JUMP was based on elude enemy attacks and deal double damage in old FF, that suit more as a damage class then tank in a MMO structure like ff14 + DRG have own unique gear sets different from others).
During DRK making game was like FULL of DPS, no needed of more, Queue was insane long for any DPS, probably that counted to incentivize tank over dps + to make new mechanics and content they made an anti magic tank, and DRK was perfect for that role.

[Reynhart]

SE choose the tank since the HEAVY armor theme suit more into tank into FF14 structure

Nowhere the OP suggested that DRK shouldn't be a tank, only that FFXI DRK iteration had some interesting skills/spell that could be added to XIV's DRK to make it a more unique tank.

(dont say Dragoon can use heavy armor, coz his own "iconic" JUMP was based on elude enemy attacks and deal double damage in old FF, that suit more as a damage class then tank in a MMO structure like ff14

Hmmm, you can't really use "Jump" as a reason to why DRG shouldn't be made a tank when sacrificing HP to do damage is a concept that you would definitely don't want to see on a tank (In its basic iteration, at least)

[Arale]

Why y'all comparing DRK designs from other games in the series that aren't even MMO's, or FFXI which is so old at this point that the comparison is pretty nutty to begin with? I'm happy DRK didn't learn anything from those other games, they had their own takes on the class for a reason and this game has it's own take. xD

[kazzel120]

But as a Dark Knight, Cecil was squishier than even a Dragoon, and no less squishy than a Monk?

He wasnt squishy at all no more then kain and paladin cecil. Pld cecil just had way more hp. And yang took way more damage then drk Cecil and Kain.

I really dont know what ff iv most of you played but even as a Drk Cecil was tanky because he was a frontline job.

Hell even his ds remake drk was tanky. Even as a pld he still took massive damage from mosy things until you gave hime draw attacks counter and stuck him in the back with ignore row. Then he became a 1 man wrecking machine.

[Seku]

Long post

Make it into a DPS and not a bargain sale Rune Fencer (aka Mystic Knight, Spell Blade, Celes, various other names it's had over the course of the entire series).

The only thing they can do now is give it a ability to allow for it to over flow it's HP, like Drain 3 from 11. Put Drain 3 on a timer. Introduce another stance that drains HP that enhances your damage. But you're going to get people complaining about that.

Other than that there are enfeebles. But it seems their moving slowly away from that or handing it out as a job "role class' option. The way the game is balanced and designed currently, it's impossible for a Dark Knight to actually exist.

Dread Spikes would be seen as OP, but could work as a ultimate, as it would be hollow ground +1 in this game since Resist's don't exist. And that's about it.

So basically, until they learn to balance things or stop caring about making every job apart of the meta (which there will never be perfect job balance), they are never going to be able to make a classic Dark Knight.

Why y'all comparing DRK designs from other games in the series that aren't even MMO's, or FFXI which is so old at this point that the comparison is pretty nutty to begin with? I'm happy DRK didn't learn anything from those other games, they had their own takes on the class for a reason and this game has it's own take. xD

Because SE has no idea what they want to do with Dark Knight and can't keep it true to it's true self. Most of the games Dark Knight played within the same theme. Do damage to yourself to enhance your attacks and sometimes enfeeble your enemies to give yourself a upper hand.

Yet Final Fantasy 11 is still going and getting updated as well. Go figure.

While every one had their own "take" on jobs, they all also stuck to a particular theme for the job. Se just happen to take another job and renamed it to Dark Knight, more about that below.

Dark Knight is a class way older of FF11 and it worked as both tank

It never worked as a tank. There was no "tank" in traditional JRPGs. Show me a ability that Dark Knight had in any stand alone RPG that it got from it's own skill set that caused the enemy to hit it. It doesn't exist. It can only be classified as a DPS. If front line, armor, and damage reduction (which FF4 DRK didn't have for those saying it did) are your only arguments, by that logic Samurai and Monk are also tanks in 14, due to the fact that Monk has Earth Stance and Riddle of Earth, and Samurai has 3rd eye and then a 20% self heal. The most important thing that a tank has is it's ability to keep the attention of the enemy and abilities to facilitate this function.

There is also the fact that in every iteration except maybe the first appearance of it being playable in 3, Dark Knight has been a job that has focused on giving up it's health to deal damage and enfeebling. Outside of the original version of 3, it has never had anything to reduce the damage to the party or assist in recovery. Paladin on the other hand is easy to make into a tank due to the fact it offered Cover and White Magic. Making it a "tank" as it's the only job that could actually take hits for other characters for years.

The current version of DRK is a direct rip off of Rune Fencer. It even has Rune Fencer abilities, such as Blood Price (named spellblade from it's game tatics advance). The original HW version of DRK pulled even more from Rune Fencer traits as well. Such as wanting it to focus on Parry and Evasion. It's magic reduction abilities are also a Rune Fencer's trait as well. The only thing that has anything to do with a true Dark Knight and has since the start is Soul Eater (which doesn't fucntion the same way, but that's ok), Blood weapon (Which use to function as Blood weapon does now), and Abyssal Drain (functions as another drain, but is the first in the series).

In short Yoshida or his job design team set themselves up for this and bit off more than they can chew. Final Fantasy has been using particular themes for jobs and monsters for years.

Last but not least, those saying that they don't want to look to FF11 Dark Knight as a tank. FF11 is the only other Final Fantasy where it could tank and kept it's identity, as all of it's abilities generated a large amount of Aggro.

[kazzel120]

Make it into a DPS and not a bargain sale Rune Fencer

It never worked as a tank. There was no "tank" in traditional JRPGs. But if I were going to classify it as something I'd say it's a DPS, in every iteration except maybe the first appearance of it being playable in 3, Dark Knight has been a job that has focused on giving up it's health to deal damage and enfeeble. Outside of the original version of 3, it has never had anything to reduce the damage to the party or assist in recovery. Paladin on the other hand is easy to make into a tank due to the fact it offered Cover and White Magic. Making it a "tank" as it's the only job that could actually take hits for other characters.

The current version of DRK is a direct rip off of Rune Fencer. It even has Rune Fencer abilities, such as Blood Price (named spellblade from it's game tatics advance). The original HW version of DRK pulled even more from Rune Fencer traits as well. Such as wanting it to focus on Parry and Evasion. It's magic reduction abilities are also a Rune Fencer's trait as well. The only thing that has anything to do with a true Dark Knight and has since the start is Soul Eater (which doesn't fucntion the same way, but that's ok), Blood weapon (Which use to function as Blood weapon does now), and Abyssal Drain (functions as another drain, but is the first in the series).

In short Yoshida or his job design team set themselves up for this and bit off more than they can chew. Final Fantasy has been using particular themes for jobs and monsters for years.

Except DRK has always been a Vanguard type heavy armor front line job with a massive hp pool. Also known as a tanky job. This isn't XI so just stop with DRK should take damage to do damage it doesn't work like that in a game that focuses around the trinity system.

In FF III it just used dark swords and was a gimpier ninja. Tactics it sucked hp and mp from its targets to stay alive when it took damage sounds a lot like drks soul eater on xiv.