What could DRK have learned from FFXI?

[kazzel120]

Except for the part where it wasn't.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the OP of this thread here, but I just couldn't ignore this particular little tidbit of misinformation.

What? Cecil was a tank aka front line in heavy armor and the only one until he became a Paladin so yes darknight in IV was a tank.

[Xenosan]

My homage to FFXI:

BW mostly as it is.. better than only every 2hours. Still have BP (can't stack it with BW but alternate with.. Then BP upgrading to a Dread/Doom Spikes at some lvl to make a BW<==>Spikes resource base (ala Umbral Ice<=>Astral Fire on BLM), maybe an action that is a HoT+DoT to maintain in place of Souleater absorb as DRKs enfeeble action (repping Living Shadow maybe?), Guillotine as an Action to serve as a Confiteor type finisher to Delirium, which is renamed to Souleater as a type of Darkside DMG modifier boost (rename the WS)..

That said, I'm much happier DRK became a tank in XIV than the shite tier DPS they were in FFXI.

I'd do anything to have the Elvaan greatsword stance in XIV though. I'd even take Hume/Galka stance over this one due to that bad stretching on the offhand wrist.

[Reynhart]

What? Cecil was a tank aka front line in heavy armor and the only one until he became a Paladin so yes darknight in IV was a tank.

Only because most party members are mages thus, weaker than him. As a Dark Knight, Cecil is as tanky as Kain or Yang, and much much squishier than its Paladin counterpart. So no, it wasn't a tank.

[Absimiliard]

What? Cecil was a tank aka front line in heavy armor and the only one until he became a Paladin so yes darknight in IV was a tank.

Yes. The job with terrible magic defense, an extremely limited assortment of equippable items, and an ability that burns a significant percentage of its own health to deal damage is a tank. The only tank-like thing it had was high armor for that point in the game, and even that would start to fall behind if you for some reason decided to grind out levels for the few reasonably durable characters you get during Cecil's stint as a dark knight.

[Lyth]

Cecil was a melee dps.

Tanks just happen to be a subtype of melee dps with frontal positionals.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Yes. The job with terrible magic defense, an extremely limited assortment of equippable items, and an ability that burns a significant percentage of its own health to deal damage is a tank. The only tank-like thing it had was high armor for that point in the game, and even that would start to fall behind if you for some reason decided to grind out levels for the few reasonably durable characters you get during Cecil's stint as a dark knight.

Sorry but heavy armor and higher hp is pretty much what made characters tanks in those days. Pretty much every character that would be considered a "tank" in the current time would have superior hp and physical defense but have vulnerability to magic. (Spellcasters could almost always no sell any spell they were hit with even with their limited amounts of hp).

Cecil was a melee dps.

Tanks just happen to be a subtype of melee dps with frontal positionals.

Pretty much. There were only 2 real types of characters in those days: Frontliners/Vanguards and Backliners/Rearguards. Vanguards were pretty much expected to take hits while dealing damage with low/no resource cost while Rearguards were pretty much expected to either heal or deal massive damage by expending resources.

[Absimiliard]

Sorry but heavy armor and higher hp is pretty much what made characters tanks in those days. Pretty much every character that would be considered a "tank" in the current time would have superior hp and physical defense but have vulnerability to magic. (Spellcasters could almost always no sell any spell they were hit with even with their limited amounts of hp).

Cecil also had garbage HP scaling as a dark knight. The only part of your criteria he seems to meet is his heavy armor, but even his defense had some pretty poor scaling beyond what the armor itself gave him.

Pretty much. There were only 2 real types of characters in those days: Frontliners/Vanguards and Backliners/Rearguards. Vanguards were pretty much expected to take hits while dealing damage with low/no resource cost while Rearguards were pretty much expected to either heal or deal massive damage by expending resources.

Enemies did not have a discernibly higher chance to target the front row with their physical attacks or magical attacks. The only differences between being front row or back row were your physical damage taken and physical damage dealt. Back row characters dealt and sustained half the normal amount, while front row characters inflicted and sustained the normal amount. There were of course some exceptions.

Next point: Kain exists. Kain could and did equip what would be termed "heavy armor" as well, including a shield He specialized in dealing large amounts of single target damage via his jump command. He also had excellent HP scaling and decent defense scaling. His magic defense was a bit lackluster.

Anywho, I think we might've derailed this thread enough at this point. Guess I better write something on topic.

FFXI's DRK was never actually intended to tank. It could acquire hate due to the ridiculous enmity multipliers SE put on its abilities. The problem is that these very same abilities actually hamstrung its defenses.

[Reynhart]

Sorry but heavy armor and higher hp is pretty much what made characters tanks in those days.

Right, higher HP, and DK Cecil had terrible HP compared to every other frontliners. Also, what made PLD Cecil a tank was not only its superior Defense, HP and Vitality but also its ability to take hits in place of others. To the point that you could even put him in the back row and Cover a frontliner, pretty much making the next physical hit a scratch.
And if some characters were at critical HP, he even does it automatically for all of them.

[Lihtleita]

drks could tank in ffxi just like ANY OTHER CLASS. the problem with using xi as a comparison for xiv jobs is that roles in xi were loose as hell.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Cecil also had garbage HP scaling as a dark knight. The only part of your criteria he seems to meet is his heavy armor, but even his defense had some pretty poor scaling beyond what the armor itself gave him.

That is a case of gameplay story integration (FFIV had a ton of it). Just like how Tellah looses Strength and Stamina when leveling up, Cecil Dark Knight stat growth was inferior so that his conversion into a Paladin would make him superior.

Enemies did not have a discernibly higher chance to target the front row with their physical attacks or magical attacks. The only differences between being front row or back row were your physical damage taken and physical damage dealt. Back row characters dealt and sustained half the normal amount, while front row characters inflicted and sustained the normal amount. There were of course some exceptions.

In final Fantasy if you have no characters in the front row all characters in the back row move to the front row. FFIV also had a system where you always had 2 of 5 character slot in one row and 3 character slots in the other. If the all characters in the front row died the characters in the back row would move to the front row. You kept the tougher "tankier" characters in the front row so that the softer characters in the back row could survive longer.

Next point: Kain exists. Kain could and did equip what would be termed "heavy armor" as well, including a shield He specialized in dealing large amounts of single target damage via his jump command. He also had excellent HP scaling and decent defense scaling. His magic defense was a bit lackluster.

Kain is also the other Vanguard character in FFIV's final party. Due to 2F/3R or 3F/2R party formation, it was always Cecil(Paladin) and Kain in the front, Rosa and Rydia in the back and Edge in the Front where he could attack with his swords (and would often get KOed) or Back where his throw command was unaffected by the back's damage drop, but this is unimportant.

But that wasn't the majority of parties Cecil(Dark Knight) was in. You had Cecil/Kain, Cecil/Rydia, Cecil/Rydia/Tellah, Cecil/Rydia/Edward, Cecil/Rydia/Edward/Rosa, Cecil/Rydia/Edward/Rosa/Yang, Cecil/Rydia/Edward/Yang, Cecil/Palom/Porom and Cecil/Palom/Porom/Tellah. After Kain leaves and until Yang joins the only Vanguard character you had was Dark Knight Cecil.