What could DRK have learned from FFXI?

[Ultimatecalibur]

P.S. And before anybody brings it up, although the kanji for ma (魔) appears in mahou (魔法), the darker connotations of ma do not carry over to mahou as mahou is very specific in being the Japanese idea of "Western magic" which doesn't have any good/bad/dark/light connotations inherent to it.

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

[TouchandFeel]

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

Not exactly because the kanji and their individual meanings don't really translate perfectly over in the case of certain words like mahou (魔法) because it is intended to specifically express a Western idea of something. So two kanji were chosen that sort of convey the idea and were put together, supernatural+law/structure of (more contextually structure of in this case) and figured that was close to the idea of Western magic with its spells and whatnot. There really isn't more depth or intricacy to it than that. Mahou is just simply the idea of Western magic that they fit kanji to in order to create a word to use for it. This process isn't uncommon in Japanese when integrating foreign ideas or concepts into the language.

Also, hou (法) doesn't really carry the same positive connotations as the Western ideas of law, order, etc. It just is, neither positive or negative, in the sense that "the order of things" can be both good and bad depending on context and association.

[Reynhart]

Also just a note, the kanji version of the name is used/referenced here and there for Makenshi as well (魔 剣士) and not just the Romaji (まけんし).

That's the exact same 魔 that you found in 魔道士 which is the word used for Black Mage, White Mage, etc...In the context of Final Fantasy III, there is no sign of any "scary" connotation, especially if you consider that the "Magic Knight" used White Magic back then.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

Mahou (魔法) and madou (魔道) are basically the same word within the context of usage in Japanese, meaning magic in a Western sense, you just rarely if ever see madou (魔道) used by itself and you rarely if ever see mahoushi (魔法士) used for mage/magician/wizard and instead see madoushi (魔道士). It's just an example of the common quirk in Japanese where two or more words mean exactly the same thing even though they have different parts, and kanji, making them up and each is used instead of the others depending on context or situation.

So no, that fact that ma (魔) is in madoushi (魔道士) has as much connotative weight as it appearing in mahou (魔法), which is virtually none for the exact same reason of it expressing a very specific concept of the Western idea of magic.

If one wants to argue that the Makenshi (魔剣士) of FF3 should not be included in an argument of "what were Dark Knight classic abilities" because it was a proto-Dark Knight and therefore the truly formative elements hadn't been established yet, that is fine.
But, if we are talking about the Japanese names, the words that are used for them , the context within the kanji and how that then relates to the words/names and how best to try to capture that in an English translation, I stand by what I have said.

Also, the last time this exact topic came up I decided to sanity-check myself and ran it by an immediate family member that is a native Japanese speaker with multiple degrees in language and literature, years of working as a professional English/Japanese translator and having taught Japanese at a college level. They basically told me what I have said here in regards to the meaning of the words and how the context of the kanji does and doesn't carry over to the words in regards to the whole ma (魔) in makenshi ((魔 剣士) and mahou (魔法) topic. I think I'll take their word on it.

[Auron_Wolf]

I love how this thread has pass from “I want this version of this class I like, to fit in this game” to “for me this a tank” then get a FFIV discussion in the middle, and then jump to kanji translation xD.

@TouchandFeel: I have a friend living in japan, working as a teacher of Spanish, and I remember having quite long conversations when I send him material for translation, to see how to fit for their lessons jeje, you really have a love for language or a lot of patient for this type of themes.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

I completely agree with you in this point, and that’s why I think to say “this class is defined by this set of parameters” is attached to each one personal gaming experience.

As a side note I don’t think we see any changes with the battle system in any class, than go more far than this dull thing we have now, since as far I have read and seen, the dev team found their “ideal formula” in this expansion .

[Reynhart]

Mahou (魔法) and madou (魔道) are basically the same word within the context of usage in Japanese meaning magic in a Western sense

You know where 魔法 is used ? In 魔法剣士 .

[TouchandFeel]

You know where 魔法 is used ? In 魔法剣士 .

Yeah ... and your point is?

I even mentioned the Mystic Knight / Mahoukenshi (魔法剣士) job in my first post.

Seriously, at this point you are just trying to argue and be contrary for the sake of it and are no longer making sense, you're just throwing stuff out there.

Again, I'll take the word of a native Japanese speaker with an educational background in languages on matters of the Japanese language over some person on a video game forum that is likely using Google translate.

[Reynhart]

Seriously, at this point you are just trying to argue and be contrary for the sake of it and are no longer making sense, you're just throwing stuff out there.

You're the one coming there to give a japanese lecture when the point was that the job of FFIII was not a Dark Knight. And that Mystic (or Magic) Knight was much more faithful in the context of Final Fantasy.

And, claiming that the 暗黒騎士 is the natural evolution of the 魔 剣士 is ignoring that the two have nothing in common in their skills of their name.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

Sigh .... You can lead a horse to water but it may still stick it's head in the sand convinced it is an ostrich.

I've provided the information in regards to translation and even vetted it with a native speaker. It's your choice to ignore it out of hubris.

I also never argued that the job from FF3 was the same as the later established classic job of Dark Knight, I stated it was the precursor to the job which Square Enix themselves reinforce by going back and replacing the original job with the later established Dark Knight in the remake.

I even said that arguing that the original FF3 version doesn't really fit into the series identify of the Dark Knight because it came before that identity was truly established was fine. Hell, I kind of even agree with that stance.

You are arguing against other peoples' points at me because you are so bent on trying to be right that you are ignoring what I actually say and instead swerve between arguments in hopes something will find purchase.

My entire point was that the translation you presented was inaccurate, which it is.

At this point I'm done with this back and forth as it is going nowhere.

[Kaeoni]

My Apocalypse Dark Knight sticks it's nose up at your idea that I'm not a tank.